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General Discussion / Entertainment => The All-Seeing Eye => Topic started by: Baw on January 07, 2012, 01:14:40 pm



Title: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Baw on January 07, 2012, 01:14:40 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d_FvgQ1csE

 8)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Trent on January 07, 2012, 03:40:48 pm
I voted Peck


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Keihan on January 07, 2012, 07:57:29 pm
Was expecting Ron Paul/10


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 07, 2012, 10:26:09 pm
You voting for Paul, Keihan?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on January 07, 2012, 11:08:08 pm
He sounds like Carlin from the '70's.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on January 07, 2012, 11:40:27 pm
Zombie turbine ftw


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Cadillak on January 09, 2012, 07:54:10 am
lol, I showed this to my father in law and he already knew who that dude was.  O0


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Keihan on January 09, 2012, 06:11:06 pm
You voting for Paul, 京阪?

The elections are rigged, but if I were voting, it'd be for him.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 09, 2012, 06:12:43 pm
You know he denies evolution and is generally pretty fundamentalist, right?

I dunno.  Something about him just bothers me.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Keihan on January 09, 2012, 06:29:54 pm
Yeah, but he's our best bet by far. There's a video of him from the most recent debate talking about racist drug laws. Nobody else running for president would have the balls to give the response he gave.

he a beast


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ress on January 09, 2012, 06:33:26 pm
You know he denies evolution and is generally pretty fundamentalist, right?

I dunno.  Something about him just bothers me.

I thought you had a huge hard on for the guy just a few months ago.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 09, 2012, 06:35:59 pm
Yeah, but he's our best bet by far. There's a video of him from the most recent debate talking about racist drug laws. Nobody else running for president would have the balls to give the response he gave.

he a beast

I'm still too naive to cave in to voting for the lesser of the myriad of evils.


You know he denies evolution and is generally pretty fundamentalist, right?

I dunno.  Something about him just bothers me.

I thought you had a huge hard on for the guy just a few months ago.

Opinions are not immune from change.  Not to mention that's a bit of an overstatement.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 09, 2012, 07:13:45 pm
I'm likely to vote Rep. this time.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Tiger on January 10, 2012, 02:29:39 am
I think it's funny how little Canadians care about voting compared to Americans.  (not saying that's a good thing) Most people don't know there's an election until two weeks before and a couple of advertisements come on TV. :D


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ress on January 10, 2012, 02:04:32 pm
It's not that people don't care, it's just that Canadian politicians focus on campaigning a few months before elections.  American politicians start campaigning more than a year ahead of elections.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 10, 2012, 02:10:35 pm
And, I may be wrong about this, but it seems that there isn't such a huge ideological divide among the major parties in Canada.  I know you guys have your crazies, too, they don't seem to be quite as powerful as ours are.  Probably makes for less heated campaigns.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 10, 2012, 02:15:39 pm
Also, I might have mentioned this guy before, but I feel obligated to throw his name out there again since we're getting closer to the election: Jon Huntsman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Huntsman,_Jr.).

He's not my ideal candidate, but he's much better than the rest of the pack in my opinion.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dadburnz2 on January 10, 2012, 07:35:30 pm
  Paul is the only one that doesn't seem like like a pathetic embarrassment.
    How stupid do we look (as a nation)to Canada?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on January 10, 2012, 07:56:31 pm
Politics are boring as hell in Canada. People are much more concerned about the US election then the Canadian one. Which makes sense.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Tiger on January 11, 2012, 01:57:41 am
How stupid do we look (as a nation)to Canada?
I don't think stupid is the right word.  Everyone seems a little obsesses with it (from my biased viewpoint) but I think it's also important to pick a good leader of powerful country... not that the President can pass any laws on his own, lol.

What makes me irk is couples that break up because they have different political views.  If my girlfriend/wife has the opposite political views as I do but we still get along, I am perfectly fine with that.  I've seen TV shows where the entire episode is based on a family registering to vote and how not registering is a huge deal... no one in Canada cares that much. (As far as I see in BC)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 17, 2012, 10:41:51 am
You know he denies evolution.

So?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 17, 2012, 01:33:26 pm
So I don't want the leader of my country to be someone who rejects basic scientific knowledge.

Now please tell me why evolution is wrong.  I'm positively dying to hear what you have to say.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 17, 2012, 02:26:55 pm
Um, staunch evolutionist scientists will tell you there is no scientific evidence that evolution exists.  So you please explain to me why it is "basic scientific knowledge."  I think that if your position is that it is scientific fact, it is YOUR burden to prove it is so.  And since the basic tenets of science involve such a proof process, the fact that you cannot prove it not only makes you scientifically flawed, but a hypocrite.

I think it is truly sad that you consider something "fact" without ANY proof whatsoever.  That is blind ignorance at its finest.  At least have the academic integrity to require at least some evidence before forming an opinion as to the truth of a matter.

So let me leave you with some statements of major scientists who fully believe and support evolution:


"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution."
 
Stephen Jay Gould (Professor of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University), "Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?" Paleobiology, vol. 6(1), January 1980, p. 127



"Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is this theory (there are several) which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so we are guilty of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this theory."
 
Ronald R. West, PhD (paleoecology and geology) (Assistant Professor of Paleobiology at Kansas State University), "Paleoecology and uniformitarianism". Compass, vol. 45, May 1968, p. 216


Darwin himself said--


"Lastly, looking not to any one time, but to all time, if my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking closely together all the species of the same group, must assuredly have existed. But, as by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?"
 
-Charles Darwin



"In fact, the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another."
 
-Evolutionist Stephen M. Stanley, Johns Hopkins University



"The earliest and most primitive members of every order already have the basic ordinal characters, and in no case is an approximately continuous series from one order to another known. In most cases the break is so sharp and the gap so large that the origin of the order is speculative and much disputed"
 
-Paleontologist George Gaylord



A major problem in proving the theory has been the fossil record; the imprints of vanished species preserved in the Earth's geological formations. This record has never revealed traces of Darwin's hypothetical intermediate variants - instead species appear and disappear abruptly, and this anomaly has fueled the creationist argument that each species was created by God.
 
-Paleontologist Mark Czarnecki (an evolutionist)



"It is as though they [fossils] were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists. Both schools of thought (Punctuationists and Gradualists) despise so-called scientific creationists equally, and both agree that the major gaps are real, that they are true imperfections in the fossil record. The only alternative explanation of the sudden appearance of so many complex animal types in the Cambrian era is divine creation and both reject this alternative."

-Richard Dawkins, 'The Blind Watchmaker', W.W. Norton & Company, New York, 1996, pp. 229-230



Evolutionist Stephen J. Gould of Harvard University put it this way during a lecture at Hobart & William Smith College....
 
"Every paleontologist knows that most species don't change. That's bothersome....brings terrible distress. ....They may get a little bigger or bumpier but they remain the same species and that's not due to imperfection and gaps but stasis. And yet this remarkable stasis has generally been ignored as no data. If they don't change, its not evolution so you don't talk about it."


----------

I could go on and on and on.  But these are just a few quotes from leading scientists who actually believe in evolution that freely understand the scientific flaws in attempting to call it a "fact" based on the information that exists.

It is comical that you won't generally find scientists willing to go that far, but so many uneducated laymen like yourself will make such a bold and unscientific conclusion.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 17, 2012, 03:06:28 pm
Dude, you mean that my extremely complex brain wasn't derived from an ape? ZOMG! :o


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 17, 2012, 03:34:38 pm
Just harrassing Turbo.  What is listed in science as a "theory" because it hasn't been proven through the scientific method and that scientists aren't even willing to attest to as "fact", he has put forth as though it were fact and that no one else should disagree.  And such a position is the exact opposite of science and the scientific method and purpose the he so loudly claims to adhere to.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Keihan on January 17, 2012, 03:42:35 pm
Evolution is real. Things evolve. The theory is that humans came from apes/have a common ancestor.

psychedelic mushrooms = the answer.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 17, 2012, 04:26:54 pm
Um, staunch evolutionist scientists will tell you there is no scientific evidence that evolution exists.

Oh god I fucking lol'd.  When I read this I was immediately struck with a sudden urge to change off of FOX, but then I realized I was just reading a baseless claim of a deluded lawyer parroting FOX news.

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So you please explain to me why it is "basic scientific knowledge."

Oh, you know, it's only basic scientific knowledge because it's the unifying theory of biology.  b)

Quote
I think that if your position is that it is scientific fact, it is YOUR burden to prove it is so.

Okay, sure.  That's actually not true in this instance since you're the one claiming that a scientific theory supported by decades of research is faulty (and should therefore present evidence that proves your claim to be so), but I'm confident that I know enough about the field to dismiss any confused assertions you might make against it.

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And since the basic tenets of science involve such a proof process, the fact that you cannot prove it not only makes you scientifically flawed, but a hypocrite.

The hell are you going on about?  Until your post here, you hadn't challenged evolution so I had absolutely no reason to defend it.  Do you expect me to preempt your arguments now?  Some unrealistic expectations right there.

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I think it is truly sad that you consider something "fact" without ANY proof whatsoever.

Yes, because the fossil record, genetic variation, DNA sequencing, natural selection and artificial selection aren't proof whatsoever that evolution is real and takes place all around us.  You couldn't be any more right.

Quote
That is blind ignorance at its finest.

It's funny you say this, considering you're the religious one.

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At least have the academic integrity to require at least some evidence before forming an opinion as to the truth of a matter.

This is just pathetic.

I've been studying evolution continuously (through biology courses and on my own time) for four years now.  I dare say I understand it far more than you do, and considering you've yet to present any actual argument against its validity, I'd say I do so quite easily.

Quote
So let me leave you with some statements of major scientists who fully believe and support evolution:

"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution."
 
Stephen Jay Gould (Professor of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University), "Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?" Paleobiology, vol. 6(1), January 1980, p. 127

Ah, Gould.  I know about him.

This also isn't the first time I've seen him misquoted like this.  Of course, I won't be surprised if this is news to you, because you probably got this quote off the first pro-creationism website Google offered you when you searched "scientists against evolution" or something.  Anyway, Gould is not arguing against evolution or the fossil record here.  What he's arguing against is the gradualist evolutionary model, which basically says that evolution proceeds slowly but continuously in all species.  Gould then goes on to provide an alternative evolutionary view, called punctuated equilibrium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium), which he argues fits the fossil record more accurately than the gradualist approach.  He never claims that the fossil record is useless, as misquoting him here would lead one to believe.

Nice try, though.  If this misquote is any indication of what I'll be dealing with in the rest of this post, I'm not lying when I say I'm really looking forward to making you look like a horse's ass again.

Quote
"Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is this theory (there are several) which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so we are guilty of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this theory."
 
Ronald R. West, PhD (paleoecology and geology) (Assistant Professor of Paleobiology at Kansas State University), "Paleoecology and uniformitarianism". Compass, vol. 45, May 1968, p. 216

Judging by the order of these two quotes, I'm guessing you're getting at least some of this stuff from creationism.org, which is pretty funny.

Alright, so, Dr. West this time.  Sounds good.

So, funny thing: This quote actually has nothing to do with evolution whatsoever.  If you read what he's saying carefully, he's not saying that Darwinian (or the gradualist approach to) evolution is unsupported or wrong.  What he's saying is that it's intellectually dishonest to say that the fossil record validates the Darwinian model, and then to turn around and say that the Darwinian model validates the fossil record.  He's arguing for a different model to be used to understand the fossil record.  This is evidenced by him saying there are several other theories to explain the fossil record.

Again, nice try.

Quote
Darwin himself said--
"Lastly, looking not to any one time, but to all time, if my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking closely together all the species of the same group, must assuredly have existed. But, as by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?"
 
-Charles Darwin

This is actually answered easily, considering this is just a fine example of creationist quote-mining.  Darwin was not posing this as an independent question.  Rather, it was the lead-up to a chapter that explained exactly what he asked in that quote (the answer can be found here (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter9.html)).  Darwin dedicated an entire chapter of On the Origin of Species to answering that question he posed.  Fair warning, though: It's long.  Read it if you want to actually know why that quote is absurd, though something tells me you won't do it.


Quote
"In fact, the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another."
 
-Evolutionist Stephen M. Stanley, Johns Hopkins University

Oh boy, more quote-mining.  How did I not see this coming? /sarcasm

Let's put this bad boy into context, shall we?

"Superb fossil data have recently been gathered from deposits of early Cenozoic Age in the Bighorn Basin of Wyoming. These deposits represent the first part of the Eocene Epoch, a critical interval when many types of modern mammals came into being. The Bighorn Basin, in the shadow of the Rocky Mountains, received large volumes of sediment from the Rockies when they were being uplifted, early in the Age of Mammals. In its remarkable degree of completeness, the fossil record here for the Early Eocene is unmatched by contemporary deposits exposed elsewhere in the world. The deposits of the Bighorn Basin provide a nearly continuous local depositional record for this interval, which lasted some five million years. It used to be assumed that certain populations of the basin could be linked together in such a way as to illustrate continuous evolution. Careful collecting has now shown otherwise. Species that were once thought to have turned into others have been found to overlap in time with these alleged descendants. In fact, the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another. Furthermore, species lasted for astoundingly long periods of time. David M. Schankler has recently gathered data for about eighty mammal species that are known from more than two stratigraphic levels in the Bighorn Basin. Very few of these species existed for less than half a million years, and their average duration was greater than a million years."

So, if you bothered to read the full quote, you'll see that he was talking specifically of the fossil record in Bighorn Basin, not the entire, worldwide fossil record.

Source: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part1-1.html (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part1-1.html), Quote #7

Nice try, etc.


Quote
"The earliest and most primitive members of every order already have the basic ordinal characters, and in no case is an approximately continuous series from one order to another known. In most cases the break is so sharp and the gap so large that the origin of the order is speculative and much disputed"
 
-Paleontologist George Gaylord

What he actually said:

"The earliest and most primitive members of every order already have the basic ordinal characters, and in no case is an approximately continuous series from one order to another known. In most cases the break is so sharp and the gap so large that the origin of the order is speculative and much disputed. Of course the orders all converge backward in time, to different degrees. The earliest known members are much more alike than the latest known members, and there is little doubt, for instance, but that all of the highly diverse ungulates did have a common ancestry; but the line making actual connection with such an ancestry is not known in even one instance."

Here, he's speaking of inferring specific ancestral lines through the fossil record.  He's not saying that the fossil record is wrong, or that no transitional fossils exist (which seems to be what the quote is meant to imply).


Quote
A major problem in proving the theory has been the fossil record; the imprints of vanished species preserved in the Earth's geological formations. This record has never revealed traces of Darwin's hypothetical intermediate variants - instead species appear and disappear abruptly, and this anomaly has fueled the creationist argument that each species was created by God.
 
-Paleontologist Mark Czarnecki (an evolutionist)

What he actually said:

"A major problem in proving the theory has been the "fossil record," the imprints of vanished species preserved in the Earth's geological formations. This record has never revealed traces of Darwin's hypothetical intermediate variants - instead, species appear and disappear abruptly, and this anomaly has fueled the creationist argument that each species was created by God as described in the Bible."

And yet again, this is speaking specifically of Darwinian evolution.  As I've already explained, there is controversy over which approach is the most accurate, with evolutionary biologists siding with and against the Darwinian model as they see fit.

What I find funny, though, are two other quotes from Czarnecki.  I think you'll appreciate them especially.

When discussing some people's views of theories and facts, he had this to say: "Such a pedagogical approach, though initiated with the best of intentions, strips the corpus of scientific knowledge down to certain facts that can be perceived by the five senses with the aid of technology; everything else is factually suspect because it cannot be directly "observed" - so much for paleontology (fossil study) and all of nuclear physics."

And, a few sentences later, this: "What about history? Past events cannot be observed, records of them are just fallible memories, words - just like the Bible, in fact."

Basically, he's saying that just because you can't see it or observe it directly doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  I seem to recall an argument of that caliber being a favorite of the evolution-denying camp.

Quote
"It is as though they [fossils] were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists. Both schools of thought (Punctuationists and Gradualists) despise so-called scientific creationists equally, and both agree that the major gaps are real, that they are true imperfections in the fossil record. The only alternative explanation of the sudden appearance of so many complex animal types in the Cambrian era is divine creation and both reject this alternative."

-Richard Dawkins, 'The Blind Watchmaker', W.W. Norton & Company, New York, 1996, pp. 229-230

Okay, I have to admit I laughed when I noticed you quoted Dawkins as if he were criticizing the legitimacy of evolution.  Clearly you don't keep up with this man's antics, though you should have gotten a hint that something was amiss when you got a quote from a book called 'The Blind Watchmaker', clearly a title mocking Intelligent Design Theory, that seemed to say evolution's validity was shaky at best.  Gotta love blind quote-mining.

Anyway, let's deal with this quote.  What he actually said:

"It is as though they [fossils] were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists. Evolutionists of all stripes believe, however, that this really does represent a very large gap in the fossil record, a gap that is simply due to the fact that, for some reason, very few fossils have lasted from periods before about 600 million years ago. One good reason might be that many of these animals had only soft parts to their bodies: no shells or bones to fossilize. If you are a creationist you may think that this is special pleading. My point here is that, when we are talking about gaps of this magnitude, there is no difference whatever in the interpretations of 'punctuationists' and 'gradualists'. Both schools of thought (Punctuationists and Gradualists) despise so-called scientific creationists equally, and both agree that the major gaps are real, that they are true imperfections in the fossil record. The only alternative explanation of the sudden appearance of so many complex animal types in the Cambrian era is divine creation and (we) both reject this alternative."

So, there you go.  I don't think that really needs much explanation on my part.


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Evolutionist Stephen J. Gould of Harvard University put it this way during a lecture at Hobart & William Smith College....
 
"Every paleontologist knows that most species don't change. That's bothersome....brings terrible distress. ....They may get a little bigger or bumpier but they remain the same species and that's not due to imperfection and gaps but stasis. And yet this remarkable stasis has generally been ignored as no data. If they don't change, its not evolution so you don't talk about it."

Cite your source.  I'm fairly certain he never said this, considering it sounds like a mish-mash of his existing quotes.


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I could go on and on and on.

Oh, I'm sure you could.  There are tons of creationist websites that generate these little gems every day, though I don't think you'd want to continue attempting to use quote-mined, misinformed poop to support your argument.  Your call.

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But these are just a few misquotes from leading scientists who actually believe in evolution that freely understand the scientific flaws in attempting to call it a "fact" based on the information that exists. that have been deliberately taken out of context in order to support creation myths.

FTFY

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It is comical that you won't generally find scientists willing to go that far

Ooooh really?

"In his book, 'The Greatest Show on Earth', Dawkins aims to put the theory of evolution in a factually unassailable position."

From http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5244-richard-dawkins-on-why-evolution-trumps-creationism (http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5244-richard-dawkins-on-why-evolution-trumps-creationism).

I could go on, but I won't.  ;)

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but so many uneducated laymen like yourself will make such a bold and unscientific conclusion.

I lol'd heartily.  You're such a presumptuous, confrontational asshat that you genuinely think everyone has it wrong.  Except you, of course.  I used to think it was simply an act, but I stopped being that naive years ago.  You're actually that guy who can't be wrong, and is perfectly willing to delude himself to preserve a world where he is never wrong.  I truly pity you.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 17, 2012, 04:32:55 pm
Dude, you mean that my extremely complex brain wasn't derived from an ape? ZOMG! :o

Oh look, another misinformed simpleton who thinks evolution claims humans came from apes.

Granted, I shouldn't be surprised that someone who believes underwear can be magical would have problems understanding some complex theories.  It's only natural.





What is listed in science as a "theory" because it hasn't been proven through the scientific method and that scientists aren't even willing to attest to as "fact", he has put forth as though it were fact and that no one else should disagree.  And such a position is the exact opposite of science and the scientific method and purpose the he so loudly claims to adhere to.

Wow.  You know, I expected some other people to be ignorant of what the definition of a scientific theory is, but not you, Lawyer.  Oh well.  I'll educate you.

"A scientific theory is a set of principles that explain and predict phenomena. Scientists create scientific theories with the scientific method, when they are originally proposed as hypotheses and tested for accuracy through observations and experiments. Once a hypothesis is verified, it becomes a theory."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory)

So there you go.  Kinda makes your whole "What is listed in science as a 'theory' because it hasn't been proven through the scientific method" thing look pretty uninformed.  I'd even go so far as to say it makes you look rather stupid.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 17, 2012, 05:39:28 pm
Dude, you mean that my extremely complex brain wasn't derived from an ape? ZOMG! :o

Oh look, another misinformed simpleton who thinks evolution claims humans came from apes.

Oh look, Treebo got his thong in a bunch because someone made a blatantly obvious sarcastic post. What's new?


Granted, I shouldn't be surprised that someone who believes underwear can be magical would have problems understanding some complex theories.  It's only natural.
"A world in which elves exist and magic works offers greater opportunities to digress and explore."


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on January 17, 2012, 06:04:03 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/H5Lbv.jpg)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 17, 2012, 10:52:44 pm
Dude, you mean that my extremely complex brain wasn't derived from an ape? ZOMG! :o

Oh look, another misinformed simpleton who thinks evolution claims humans came from apes.

Oh look, Treebo got his thong in a bunch because someone made a blatantly obvious sarcastic post. What's new?

I guess your brand of sarcasm is so similar to stupidity that I couldn't tell the difference.  My apologies.

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Granted, I shouldn't be surprised that someone who believes underwear can be magical would have problems understanding some complex theories.  It's only natural.
"A world in which elves exist and magic works offers greater opportunities to digress and explore."

"People who deny science in favor of fairy tales are generally stupid." - Turboweasle


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 18, 2012, 08:08:19 am
Quote from: Turboweasle link=topic=20756.msg397337#msg397337

What is listed in science as a "theory" because it hasn't been proven through the scientific method and that scientists aren't even willing to attest to as "fact", he has put forth as though it were fact and that no one else should disagree.  And such a position is the exact opposite of science and the scientific method and purpose the he so loudly claims to adhere to.

Wow.  You know, I expected some other people to be ignorant of what the definition of a scientific theory is, but not you, Lawyer.  Oh well.  I'll educate you.

"A scientific theory is a set of principles that explain and predict phenomena. Scientists create scientific theories with the scientific method, when they are originally proposed as hypotheses and tested for accuracy through observations and experiments. Once a hypothesis is verified, it becomes a theory."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory)

So there you go.  Kinda makes your whole "What is listed in science as a 'theory' because it hasn't been proven through the scientific method" thing look pretty uninformed.  I'd even go so far as to say it makes you look rather stupid.

Ah so after posting a ridiculously long post and missing the point in it, you are at least starting to get it.  I am not debating the merits of evolution here.  That would be a colossal waste of our time.  You have your opinion and I have mine and neither will change.  This quote above at least shows you are starting to get my actual point, and that is that you presented evolution as a "fact" and that any politician who disbelieves it is therefore not worthy of a vote.  I merely was putting it where it belongs, as a "theory".  Now you gave the definition of theory, but neglected to give the definition of "law" which is the way you are presenting the theory of evolution.  Further, I gave those quotations (and you can use the quotes you gave to also prove my point) merely to show how that the proper scientific method hasn't actually provided the conclusion you claim.  Truly evolution is in the hypothesis stage because none of the "evidence" in the fossil record actually "verifies" the existence of inter-species evolution as required to make something a verified theory.  What you listed: the fossil record, genetic variation, DNA sequencing, natural selection and artificial selection, aren't proof of inter-species evolution, but rather proof of genetic mutations and intra-species natural selection.  In order to use them to support inter-species evolution you must make dramatic leaps of inference that are not true science. 

So again, my point is your flawed logic in calling evolution "fact" when science doesn't even do so.

And I LOLOLOL @ your 4 years of studying evolution and you claim to be an expert.  LOLOLOLOLOL.  College kids are so cute when they think a few classes at Mississippi College (nice accreditation there) make them know it all.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on January 18, 2012, 08:32:22 am
(http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy31/JabbaScript/me-1.jpg)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 18, 2012, 09:33:45 am
(http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy31/JabbaScript/me-1.jpg)

QFT



btw jabba, you suck at antagonization


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 18, 2012, 10:20:29 am
Ah so after posting a ridiculously long post and missing the point in it, you are at least starting to get it.

You say this in every single debate you've ever taken part in on this site.  It means next to nothing.

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I am not debating the merits of evolution here.

Oh really?  Then I find it incredibly odd of you to go on an uninformed rant over how evolution is just a theory and isn't supported by any evidence whatsoever, and then go on to misquote evolutionists in an attempt to discredit evolution.

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That would be a colossal waste of our time.

It would be a colossal waste of your time.  I'm already informed on the matter.

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You have your opinion and I have mine and neither will change.

Except it isn't my opinion that evolution is right.  It is, independent of what I think and of what you think.  That's how facts work.

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This quote above at least shows you are starting to get my actual point, and that is that you presented evolution as a "fact" and that any politician who disbelieves it is therefore not worthy of a vote.

OH LOOK GUYS HERE'S WHAT I MEANT I WASN'T TRYING TO DISCREDIT EVOLUTION BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE SILLY LOL

Yeah, sure.  I believe you.  b)

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I merely was putting it where it belongs, as a "theory".

And again, you seem to not understand what a scientific theory is.

I'll make it easy for you: In layman's terms, a scientific theory is a fact.  Saying "evolution's just a theory" is about as intelligent as saying "gravity's just a theory", as if by nature of them being called scientific theories they are somehow untrue or relatively unsupported.

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Now you gave the definition of theory, but neglected to give the definition of "law" which is the way you are presenting the theory of evolution.

Ugh.

"Some scientists will tell you that the difference between them is that a law describes what nature does under certain conditions, and will predict what will happen as long as those conditions are met. A theory explains how nature works."

"Looking at things this was helps to explain, in part, why physics and chemistry have lots of "laws" whereas biology has few laws (and more theories). In biology, it is very difficult to describe all the complexities of life with "simple" (relatively speaking!) mathematical terms."

"Regardless of which definitions one uses to distinguish between a law and a theory, scientists would agree that a theory is NOT a "transitory law, a law in waiting". There is NO hierarchy being implied by scientists who use these words. That is, a law is neither "better than" nor "above" a theory. From this view, laws and theories "do" different things and have different roles to play in science. Furthermore, notice that with any of the above definitions of law, neither scientists nor nature "conform" to the law. In science, a law is not something that is dictated to scientists or nature; it is not something that a scientist or nature has to do under threat of some penalty if they don't conform."

http://science.kennesaw.edu/~rmatson/3380theory.html (http://science.kennesaw.edu/~rmatson/3380theory.html)

You are terribly scientifically illiterate.  Guess I shouldn't be surprised since the only science you've probably taken is political "science."  b)

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Further, I gave those quotations (and you can use the quotes you gave to also prove my point) merely to show how that the proper scientific method hasn't actually provided the conclusion you claim.

Except it has.

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Truly evolution is in the hypothesis stage because none of the "evidence" in the fossil record actually "verifies" the existence of inter-species evolution as required to make something a verified theory.

Inter-species evolution is very rare (and some debate it isn't possible at all), considering a species is defined as a group of organisms that can mate and produce offspring.  Naturally, things outside a certain species can't mate with things in a different species, save for instances of nearly identical genes like horses and donkeys making mules.  Even that is sometimes dismissed, as mules are sterile and a species has to be able to produce fertile offspring.

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What you listed: the fossil record, genetic variation, DNA sequencing, natural selection and artificial selection, aren't proof of inter-species evolution, but rather proof of genetic mutations and intra-species natural selection.  In order to use them to support inter-species evolution you must make dramatic leaps of inference that are not true science.

I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

You're using inter-species evolution like it were speciation, but those two are different.  I'll just assume you're speaking of speciation, considering you're not even sure yourself.

It's clear you don't know what speciation is, so I'll explain it: Speciation occurs when, over a long period of time, small genetic changes in a group of organisms accumulate to such a degree that these organisms can no longer mate with organisms still holding their species' original form.  Thus, a new species arises.  We have clear evidence of that.

Also, I'm interested in what these "dramatic leaps of inferences" are that you seem to think are real.  See, you haven't actually backed up anything you're saying, instead opting for making wild accusations with no basis.  That should be below you, really.

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So again, my point is your flawed logic in calling evolution "fact" when science doesn't even do so.

Except it does.  Evolution is known both as "the Theory of Evolution" and "Evolutionary Law", depending on which scientist you ask.  Now, as I've explained earlier, the difference is negligible, but since you seem fixated upon Evolution not being a fact or law, I figured I'd go ahead and tell you it was.

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And I LOLOLOL @ your 4 years of studying evolution and you claim to be an expert.

Where did I claim to be an expert?  All I said was that I felt like I understood enough of it to handle this conversation.  And clearly I haven't been wrong.

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LOLOLOLOLOL.  College kids are so cute when they think a few classes at Mississippi College (nice accreditation there) make them know it all.

Oh look, ad hominem.  Classy.

But, hey, if you want to start bringing personal information into this, I can play that game.  How's working in Fulton County going for you?

You've got a nice house, by the way.  Smaller than I was expecting, but hey, I guess the economy is tough on lawyers, too.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 18, 2012, 10:21:16 am
Dude, you mean that my extremely complex brain wasn't derived from an ape? ZOMG! :o

Oh look, another misinformed simpleton who thinks evolution claims humans came from apes.

Oh look, Treebo got his thong in a bunch because someone made a blatantly obvious sarcastic post. What's new?

I guess your brand of sarcasm is so similar to stupidity that I couldn't tell the difference.  My apologies.

Tomato/tomahto

I bet every other reader understood the sarcasm.  b)

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"People who deny science in favor of fairy tales are generally stupid." - Turboweasle
Agreed  O0

"People who deny a presidential vote to someone who denies an evolutionary theory is a petty individual indeed." - People who have more important things on a voting agenda than minute subjects like evolution


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 18, 2012, 10:30:45 am
Dude, you mean that my extremely complex brain wasn't derived from an ape? ZOMG! :o

Oh look, another misinformed simpleton who thinks evolution claims humans came from apes.

Oh look, Treebo got his thong in a bunch because someone made a blatantly obvious sarcastic post. What's new?

I guess your brand of sarcasm is so similar to stupidity that I couldn't tell the difference.  My apologies.

Tomato/tomahto

I bet every other reader understood the sarcasm.  b)

I bet every other reader realized you weren't being sarcastic and just backpeddled once you were called out on it.

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"People who deny science in favor of fairy tales are generally stupid." - Turboweasle
Agreed  O0

"People who deny a presidential vote to someone who denies an evolutionary theory is a petty individual indeed." - People who have more important things on a voting agenda than minute subjects like evolution

Cute that you think you speak for everyone.  Lol.

And I'm terribly sorry I want a scientifically literate president.  I guess issues like stem cell research, cancer treatment, and the like wouldn't be effected by a strong understanding of the unifying scientific theory of biology.  Silly me.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 18, 2012, 10:44:04 am
(http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy31/JabbaScript/me-1.jpg)

QFT

He's mocking you, lmfao.  Try reading it again.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 18, 2012, 10:51:42 am
I love how scientifically literate translates to "someone who agrees with me". 

I also love how you simply claim "we have clear evidence of speciation" but don't proffer any.  Our disagreement is that your so called "evidence" is wrong, and because of that, your "theory" which you claim as fact, is not "verified" as required by the definition of theory.

Please oh please show the "verification" of this theory.  And do it without citing to evidence that requires assumptions.  ALL of the evidence cited by evolutionists requires assumptions to be made.  And that is NEVER solid evidence.

Good thing you aren't running for president.  I would want my president to understand what constitutes proof so that he isn't so easily persuaded, like yourself.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 18, 2012, 10:53:06 am
(http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy31/JabbaScript/me-1.jpg)

QFT

He's mocking you, lmfao.  Try reading it again.

Boy you ARE a retard.  Maybe quote the rest of it to show I clearly knew he was mocking me but turned it around because it was a failure.



Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 18, 2012, 10:54:27 am
or maybe you just are too illiterate to know what "antagonize" means.

wouldn't surprise me after reading your responses here.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 18, 2012, 10:57:51 am
Dude, you mean that my extremely complex brain wasn't derived from an ape? ZOMG! :o

Oh look, another misinformed simpleton who thinks evolution claims humans came from apes.

Oh look, Treebo got his thong in a bunch because someone made a blatantly obvious sarcastic post. What's new?

I guess your brand of sarcasm is so similar to stupidity that I couldn't tell the difference.  My apologies.

Tomato/tomahto

I bet every other reader understood the sarcasm.  b)

I bet every other reader realized you weren't being sarcastic and just backpeddled once you were called out on it.
O' golly, not another "you can't tell what I was really trying to say, because this is the interwebz" argument.  b)

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Cute that you think you speak for everyone.  Lol.
Not everyone, only my lowly self.  But...
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A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of Likely U.S. Voters shows that 80% regard economic issues as Very Important in terms of how they will vote in the next congressional election.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that our economy > evolution when it comes to issues that concern our next president.

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And I'm terribly sorry I want a scientifically literate president.  I guess issues like stem cell research, cancer treatment, and the like wouldn't be effected by a strong understanding of the unifying scientific theory of biology.  Silly me.

Hey, if those topics are more important to you than 8.5% unemployment rate then it's your prerogative, I can't knock you for that.  


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 18, 2012, 11:00:41 am
And I'm terribly sorry I want a scientifically literate president.  I guess issues like stem cell research, cancer treatment, and the like wouldn't be effected by a strong understanding of the unifying scientific theory of biology.  Silly me.

Yes, because none of these things could possibly be accomplished by someone who disagrees with the theory of evolution. LOL

your ignorance amazes me


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Laughing Turd on January 18, 2012, 01:03:32 pm
 :o i'll read this later but being a turbo vs ohio fight i already have a good idea of how this argument will break down


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 18, 2012, 01:42:02 pm
I love how scientifically literate translates to "someone who agrees with me".

It doesn't, nor did I ever claim it did.  You don't understand the difference between a scientific theory and the layman's idea of a theory, which makes you scientifically illiterate.

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I also love how you simply claim "we have clear evidence of speciation" but don't proffer any.

Wolves were domesticated and bred through artificial selection to create dogs.  Speciation.

Horses and donkeys were bred to make mules.  Speciation.

The list can go on.

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Our disagreement is that your so called "evidence" is wrong

And yet, you haven't been able to assert one instance in which the evidence is wrong.  You just keep saying it is.

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and because of that, your "theory" which you claim as fact, is not "verified" as required by the definition of theory.

First of all, it isn't my theory.  It is verified by the definition of a scientific theory.  Your ignorance of the evidence for evolution in no way makes it my responsibility to educate you, though I have done so in certain cases.  You have yet to make an actual claim against a set of evidence, instead insisting over and over again that it's "just a theory" or inserting quote-mined garbage.

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Please oh please show the "verification" of this theory.  And do it without citing to evidence that requires assumptions.  ALL of the evidence cited by evolutionists requires assumptions to be made.  And that is NEVER solid evidence.

Name the fucking assumptions that are being made.  Name them.  For fuck's sake, you are painfully stupid.

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Good thing you aren't running for president.  I would want my president to understand what constitutes proof so that he isn't so easily persuaded, like yourself.

Well isn't that just the most clever goddamn thing in existence.  It's a shame you wouldn't know what qualifies as evidence if it was fingering your mother, but hey, again, you're religious.  I can't expect much out of someone who believes in magic without evidence.



(http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy31/JabbaScript/me-1.jpg)

QFT

He's mocking you, lmfao.  Try reading it again.

Boy you ARE a retard.  Maybe quote the rest of it to show I clearly knew he was mocking me but turned it around because it was a failure.

QFT means "quoted for truth".  It's not a sarcastic response.  Even with "oh btw u sucks at antagonizing lolol" tacked on, it didn't sound sarcastic at all.  And considering you clearly have reading comprehension issues on par with Helen Keller's, it wouldn't be hard to imagine that you just didn't get what Jabba was saying.

or maybe you just are too illiterate to know what "antagonize" means.

Yeah, clearly I don't know what "antagonize" means.  Good call.

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wouldn't surprise me after reading your responses here.

Oh look, you didn't capitalize the first word of your sentence.  Naturally, the only reasonable assumption I can make is that you're the product of centuries of inbreeding and only have stubs where your hands should be, leading to your inability to hold down the right keys on your keyboard.  That definitely explains why you didn't capitalize properly.






O' golly, not another "you can't tell what I was really trying to say, because this is the interwebz" argument.  b)

That would be the argument you would try to make, considering you're the dumbass who made the claim that evolution said we came from apes.  God you're bad at this.

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Cute that you think you speak for everyone.  Lol.
Not everyone, only my lowly self.  But...
Quote
A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of Likely U.S. Voters shows that 80% regard economic issues as Very Important in terms of how they will vote in the next congressional election.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that our economy > evolution when it comes to issues that concern our next president.

Oh, so now you've informed me that you don't understand polls.  Cool.

Yes, economic issues are very important to people.  That doesn't mean that is their only concern.  It just means it's a big concern to 80% of the population, as it should be.  The same 80% could also say evolution is very important in terms of how they will vote.  The opinions aren't mutually exclusive.  Aren't you a bright one?

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And I'm terribly sorry I want a scientifically literate president.  I guess issues like stem cell research, cancer treatment, and the like wouldn't be effected by a strong understanding of the unifying scientific theory of biology.  Silly me.

Hey, if those topics are more important to you than 8.5% unemployment rate then it's your prerogative, I can't knock you for that.  

When did I ever say this?  When did I ever imply it?  In fact, you're the one who assumed that I would not vote for Ron Paul because of the evolution issue, which is something I never said.  I merely commented that it made me uneasy about voting for him.

Stop putting words in my mouth.  Your ignorance has no place in my mind, thank you.





And I'm terribly sorry I want a scientifically literate president.  I guess issues like stem cell research, cancer treatment, and the like wouldn't be effected by a strong understanding of the unifying scientific theory of biology.  Silly me.

Yes, because none of these things could possibly be accomplished by someone who disagrees with the theory of evolution. LOL

Could they?  Sure.  Would they be more likely to understand it entirely if they had a strong grasp of evolution, and didn't dismiss it on religious grounds?  Yes.  Infinitely so.  That's important to me.  How you can not see that is baffling.

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your ignorance amazes me

You know what?  I'm glad it does.  I really am.  If I can amaze you with what you claim is ignorance, then you must cream your shit-stained pants when I verbally trash every pitiful argument you put up.  I must rock your fucking world, and that just tickles me to no end.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 18, 2012, 02:17:17 pm
Quote
That would be the argument you would try to make, considering you're the dumbass who made the claim that evolution said we came from apes.  God you're bad at this.
Actually, you're the dumbass that assumed I was serious in the first place.  Joke's on you, man, but you can keep asserting that you know what I actually know/feel, it only makes you look more pathetic.

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Yes, economic issues are very important to people.  That doesn't mean that is their only concern.  It just means it's a big concern to 80% of the population, as it should be.  The same 80% could also say evolution is very important in terms of how they will vote.  The opinions aren't mutually exclusive.  Aren't you a bright one?
True, but show me please, where any of our presidential candidate's views on evolution is going to make an impact on voters (aside from yourself, of course.)

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Quote
And I'm terribly sorry I want a scientifically literate president.  I guess issues like stem cell research, cancer treatment, and the like wouldn't be effected by a strong understanding of the unifying scientific theory of biology.  Silly me.

Hey, if those topics are more important to you than 8.5% unemployment rate then it's your prerogative, I can't knock you for that.  

When did I ever say this? When did I ever imply it?  In fact, you're the one who assumed that I would not vote for Ron Paul because of the evolution issue, which is something I never said.  I merely commented that it made me uneasy about voting for him.


You know he denies evolution.
Quote
And I'm terribly sorry I want a scientifically literate president.
 
Quote
I guess issues like stem cell research, cancer treatment, and the like wouldn't be effected by a strong understanding of the unifying scientific theory of biology.  Silly me.
You implied it several times.  You're "uneasy" about voting for someone for a petty issue, but again, we're in a free country right?

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Stop putting words in my mouth.  Your ignorance has no place in my mind, thank you.
If you don't like my "ignorance" then you're welcome to stop replying to me, it's simple really.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 18, 2012, 02:23:15 pm
Quote
That would be the argument you would try to make, considering you're the dumbass who made the claim that evolution said we came from apes.  God you're bad at this.
Actually, you're the dumbass that assumed I was serious in the first place.  Joke's on you, man, but you can keep asserting that you know what I actually know/feel, it only makes you look more pathetic.

Oh, so you fully accept evolution?  That's good.  My apologies.

Except, I'm pretty sure you don't.  ;)

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Yes, economic issues are very important to people.  That doesn't mean that is their only concern.  It just means it's a big concern to 80% of the population, as it should be.  The same 80% could also say evolution is very important in terms of how they will vote.  The opinions aren't mutually exclusive.  Aren't you a bright one?
True, but show me please, where any of our presidential candidate's views on evolution is going to make an impact on voters (aside from yourself, of course.)

reddit.com/r/atheism

Only ~200,000 people who it would matter to on the internet alone.  Granted, it's down right now, so you can't actually look.  r/science and r/askscience too, most likely.

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And I'm terribly sorry I want a scientifically literate president.  I guess issues like stem cell research, cancer treatment, and the like wouldn't be effected by a strong understanding of the unifying scientific theory of biology.  Silly me.

Hey, if those topics are more important to you than 8.5% unemployment rate then it's your prerogative, I can't knock you for that.  

When did I ever say this? When did I ever imply it?  In fact, you're the one who assumed that I would not vote for Ron Paul because of the evolution issue, which is something I never said.  I merely commented that it made me uneasy about voting for him.


You know he denies evolution.
Quote
And I'm terribly sorry I want a scientifically literate president.
 
Quote
I guess issues like stem cell research, cancer treatment, and the like wouldn't be effected by a strong understanding of the unifying scientific theory of biology.  Silly me.
You implied it several times.  You're "uneasy" about voting for someone for a petty issue, but again, we're in a free country right?

Nowhere in those quotes is it implied that I don't care about economic issues.  You're quite literally dumb as rocks if you think that is the case.

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Stop putting words in my mouth.  Your ignorance has no place in my mind, thank you.
If you don't like my "ignorance" then you're welcome to stop replying to me, it's simple really.

No.  See, unlike you, I don't ignore people who disagree with me.  I'm able to handle disagreement without throwing a pity party, as I recall you doing because I was "persecuting" you over your religion.  Again, no thanks.  I can handle myself like a grown up.  Ignoring people is what children do.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 18, 2012, 03:24:51 pm
I love how scientifically literate translates to "someone who agrees with me".

It doesn't, nor did I ever claim it did.  You don't understand the difference between a scientific theory and the layman's idea of a theory, which makes you scientifically illiterate.

I do understand the difference.  You just can't see it.  Scientific theory requires verification.  I don't believe it exists, you do.  Simple as that.  Quit acting like you win an argument just because you make ridiculous claims like this when in reality I simply disagree with you.

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I also love how you simply claim "we have clear evidence of speciation" but don't proffer any.

Wolves were domesticated and bred through artificial selection to create dogs.  Speciation.

Horses and donkeys were bred to make mules.  Speciation.

The list can go on.

First, using a conclusion to prove a point is poor arguing.  Try again.

Second, those are two completely different genetic examples.  You would know that if you had a clue.  Clearly you are just pretending you have studied biology.  Wolves to dogs would constitute speciation if it were proved.  But in order for you to prove it, you must make many assumptions about something that happened a long time ago with no record that it actually happened.  As for mules, that is VERY different.  That is the crossbreeding of two species that results in a sterile offspring.  Not even speciation.


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and because of that, your "theory" which you claim as fact, is not "verified" as required by the definition of theory.

First of all, it isn't my theory.  It is verified by the definition of a scientific theory.  Your ignorance of the evidence for evolution in no way makes it my responsibility to educate you, though I have done so in certain cases.  You have yet to make an actual claim against a set of evidence, instead insisting over and over again that it's "just a theory" or inserting quote-mined garbage.

You have yet (along with any scientist) to put forth evidence of evolution that doesn't require assumptions or inferences.  Until you do, it is not verified.  Showing mutation or natural selection goes nowhere to actually prove evolution (common ancestry).  You must be blind not to see that.    

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Please oh please show the "verification" of this theory.  And do it without citing to evidence that requires assumptions.  ALL of the evidence cited by evolutionists requires assumptions to be made.  And that is NEVER solid evidence.

Name the fucking assumptions that are being made.  Name them.  For fuck's sake, you are painfully stupid.

Um, every single thing you put forth, i.e. natural selection, the genome, genetic mutation, etc...  Using those all rely on the assumption that these things can actually lead to speciation and a common ancestor.  Yet there is no way to rely on these things as proof of evolution without having to infer that at some point during these processes speciation occurs.  


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(http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy31/JabbaScript/me-1.jpg)

QFT

He's mocking you, lmfao.  Try reading it again.

Boy you ARE a retard.  Maybe quote the rest of it to show I clearly knew he was mocking me but turned it around because it was a failure.

QFT means "quoted for truth".  It's not a sarcastic response.  Even with "oh btw u sucks at antagonizing lolol" tacked on, it didn't sound sarcastic at all.  And considering you clearly have reading comprehension issues on par with Helen Keller's, it wouldn't be hard to imagine that you just didn't get what Jabba was saying.

I never said it was sarcastic.  Again learn to read.  I said it was clear I understood he was trying to make fun of me.  However, by stating he sucked at antagonizing me, because what he posted was basically internet speak for how I feel arguing with an idiot like yourself.  So I wasn't sarcastic in saying QFT, but serious.  But your conclusion that I didn't know he was making a lame attempt to be funny at my expense just shows your stupidity.

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or maybe you just are too illiterate to know what "antagonize" means.

Yeah, clearly I don't know what "antagonize" means.  Good call.

Sadly, I'm not sure given your clear lack of reading comprehension skills (see above).

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wouldn't surprise me after reading your responses here.

Oh look, you didn't capitalize the first word of your sentence.  Naturally, the only reasonable assumption I can make is that you're the product of centuries of inbreeding and only have stubs where your hands should be, leading to your inability to hold down the right keys on your keyboard.  That definitely explains why you didn't capitalize properly.

Sadly this actually resembles many of the ways you read posts.  You improperly try to assume what argument is being made because you lack the ability to extrapolate thoughts from text.  But you are willing to rely on assumptions in your science, so why not other times?




I find it cute that you keep trying to bring up religion.  I think it goes a long way to show you aren't able to comprehend this outside the science vs. religion argument.  However, I have yet to bring religion into this.  It has nothing to do with the flawed conclusions that the theory of evolution relies upon.  Every time you bring it up all you do is prove to everyone that you don't know what you are talking about and have to resort to unrelated topics to advance your position.  You might fool many idiots around here into thinking you have a clue and your arguments are good.  But to those of us who actually understand logic and reasoning, we know better.  You are nothing but a moron who spews out a lot of words pretending to be intelligent.  


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 18, 2012, 03:53:06 pm
But again, you are trying to make this an argument about the merits of evolution.  That was not my original argument, and I think we can both agree it is futile.  My point was that your reliance on a candidate's position regarding evolution as a determining factor in your vote is ridiculous.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 18, 2012, 04:09:32 pm
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Oh, so you fully accept evolution?  That's good.  My apologies.

Except, I'm pretty sure you don't.
I have no dog in the race, although I do get quite amused (and did so before I became Christian, so your toss outs of religion in this thread have no meaning) when someone without proof says that I have evolved from a fish that humped a land creature and we somehow sprouted legs, arms, noses, and the most complex brains in the animal kingdom. I'm still waiting for nature to produce me a flying vehicle.  It sure is taking it's sweet ass time.



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reddit.com/r/atheism

Only ~200,000 people who it would matter to on the internet alone.  Granted, it's down right now, so you can't actually look.  r/science and r/askscience too, most likely.
SOPA  >:(  Anyway, is evolution a more important issue to the country and it's people when it comes to picking a leader at this particular time?

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Nowhere in those quotes is it implied that I don't care about economic issues.  You're quite literally dumb as rocks if you think that is the case.
I never said you didn't care about economic issues.  You just initially threw out the issue of evolution as if to sway Keihan away from his vote.

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No.  See, unlike you, I don't ignore people who disagree with me.  I'm able to handle disagreement without throwing a pity party, as I recall you doing because I was "persecuting" you over your religion.  Again, no thanks.  I can handle myself like a grown up.  Ignoring people is what children do.
I don't ignore you because you disagree with me, I ignore you because I think you're a piece of shit. (It may not be the "Christian" thing to do, but I guess I will reap any consequences that God has in store for me.) Why would I talk to you if I have nothing meaningful to say to you? I guess you're the one who can't handle being "ignored" since you're bumbling about it.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dadburnz2 on January 18, 2012, 04:44:36 pm
TO HELL WITH Ron Paul. I'm voting for Turbo.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 18, 2012, 05:27:11 pm
I do understand the difference.  You just can't see it.  Scientific theory requires verification.  I don't believe it exists, you do.  Simple as that.

The evidence exists whether or not you believe in it.  Simple as that.

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Quit acting like you win an argument just because you make ridiculous claims like this when in reality I simply disagree with you.

Lol, I'm the one making ridiculous claims?  Name one.  Name a single one.

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I also love how you simply claim "we have clear evidence of speciation" but don't proffer any.

Wolves were domesticated and bred through artificial selection to create dogs.  Speciation.

Horses and donkeys were bred to make mules.  Speciation.

The list can go on.

First, using a conclusion to prove a point is poor arguing.  Try again.

Yes, I'm using proof of speciation to show that speciation exists.  Crazy, that.

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Second, those are two completely different genetic examples.  You would know that if you had a clue.  Clearly you are just pretending you have studied biology.  Wolves to dogs would constitute speciation if it were proved.  But in order for you to prove it, you must make many assumptions about something that happened a long time ago with no record that it actually happened.  As for mules, that is VERY different.  That is the crossbreeding of two species that results in a sterile offspring.  Not even speciation.

This is just too wonderful.  You couldn't have handed me an easier argument than this.  Let's get started.

Yes, these are two different genetic examples.  Both are speciation.  New species emerged from existing ones.  That's speciation.

Are you seriously going to argue that dogs did not come from wolves?  Lol, now I'm beginning to suspect you're a Young Earth Creationist.  Tell me Ohio, is the Earth roughly 6,000 years old?  Anyway, this is still incredibly ignorant of you.  But don't take my world for it; take Wikipedia's:

(http://oi40.tinypic.com/20gnnye.jpg)

Oh, would you look at that.  Dogs came from wolves.  It's like I actually know what I'm talking about or something.

And, you know, I find it funny that you say we have no choice but to assume that dogs came into existence that way, because "no one was around to observe it."  First of all, yes, people were around to observe it.  Humans made dogs, either directly through selective breeding or indirectly depending on who you ask.  Second, the reason I find it funny that you say this is that, for the third time, you're religious.  No one was around to witness your god talking to Moses or Abraham or Isaac, yet you seem perfectly okay with believing that.  But no, when it comes to actual evidence, like DNA gene sequencing showing the DNA of gray wolves and domesticated dogs to be nearly identical, you don't agree with it because you claim the proof is not sufficient.  Okay, you go ahead and do that, Mr. Double Standards.

And as for the mule, yes, it is very different.  As I said earlier, it is technically speciation because a new species is created from the process.

But you're missing the point.  You said there was no evidence of speciation, and I gave it to you.  Now you're falling back on "Oh, you didn't have anyone observe it."  And let's be honest: That's a crappy argument.  You've never observed electrons, yet you don't doubt their existence, surely.  Odd, then, that you'd place evolution, which has just as much evidence supporting it as does the theory of universal gravitation, under harsher scrutiny and deny it apparently off-hand.  Quite hypocritical of you.

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You have yet (along with any scientist) to put forth evidence of evolution that doesn't require assumptions or inferences.  Until you do, it is not verified.  Showing mutation or natural selection goes nowhere to actually prove evolution (common ancestry).  You must be blind not to see that.

You keep saying this, but you never tell me what assumptions are being made.  I think that speaks for itself.

That aside, it's not my job to tell you what the proof is any more than I already have.  You clearly have no intention of reading anything I link you to, and I'd be willing to bet my left testicle that you have not and would never read "On the Origin of Species".  If you want to know what the proof is, go look for it.  It's not obscure.  Just pull your head out of that Bronze Age fairy tale long enough to fairly judge what you're reading.    

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Um, every single thing you put forth, i.e. natural selection, the genome, genetic mutation, etc...  Using those all rely on the assumption that these things can actually lead to speciation and a common ancestor.  Yet there is no way to rely on these things as proof of evolution without having to infer that at some point during these processes speciation occurs.

Dude, steady genetic variation + large amount of time = new species.  This is non-negotiable, at least in the way you're trying to argue it.

And no one is inferring that speciation occurs.  We've seen it.  Dogs.  Goddamn dogs, dude.  I know you won't accept that dogs used to be wolves, but that doesn't mean it never happened.  It did.

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I never said it was sarcastic.  Again learn to read.

You said "QTF" which, as I said before, means "Quote for truth."  So, either you agree with what he said in the image or you were being sarcastic about saying QTF.  There is no alternative.

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I said it was clear I understood he was trying to make fun of me.

No, you said QTF.

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However, by stating he sucked at antagonizing me, because what he posted was basically internet speak for how I feel arguing with an idiot like yourself.  So I wasn't sarcastic in saying QFT, but serious.  But your conclusion that I didn't know he was making a lame attempt to be funny at my expense just shows your stupidity.

Except his image makes absolutely no sense when applied to what I've said, considering I'm not the one constantly going "herp derp you missed my point lol Imma repeat myself ad infinitum".  It's okay, seriously.  This isn't the first time you've made a fuck-up of that caliber.  I mean, really, in this discussion that's the last thing you need to be worrying about.

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or maybe you just are too illiterate to know what "antagonize" means.

Yeah, clearly I don't know what "antagonize" means.  Good call.

Sadly, I'm not sure given your clear lack of reading comprehension skills (see above).

Oh aren't you just a witty SOB?  You and Dane Cook would be hilarious together.

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wouldn't surprise me after reading your responses here.

Oh look, you didn't capitalize the first word of your sentence.  Naturally, the only reasonable assumption I can make is that you're the product of centuries of inbreeding and only have stubs where your hands should be, leading to your inability to hold down the right keys on your keyboard.  That definitely explains why you didn't capitalize properly.

Sadly this actually resembles many of the ways you read posts.

I read posts with my hands?  Lol, by science you're dumb.

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You improperly try to assume what argument is being made because you lack the ability to extrapolate thoughts from text.

I find it funny that every time you're on the losing side of an argument you resort to "you have no reading comprehension skills."  It's tantamount to waving a white flag at this point.

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But you are willing to rely on assumptions in your science, so why not other times?

Bitch, science doesn't make assumptions.  That would be religion.




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I find it cute that you keep trying to bring up religion.

Well I'd sooner imagine that was the source of your intellectual weakness rather than thinking you were actually this stupid originally.  Who knows, maybe I'm wrong.

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I think it goes a long way to show you aren't able to comprehend this outside the science vs. religion argument.

This isn't a science vs. religion argument.  I keep referencing it because I find the double standard you and K practice to be absolutely hilarious.

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However, I have yet to bring religion into this.

And that means I can't bring religion into it?  Lol.

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It has nothing to do with the flawed conclusions that the theory of evolution relies upon.

Evolution's conclusions are not flawed.  You've yet to say, specifically, how they're actually flawed.  I attribute this to your realization that, until you say why they're wrong, I can't refute the ridiculous claim that would undoubtedly be.

Additionally, as I said above, I bring up religion to shed light on your hypocrisy with regards to when you demand proof and when you don't.

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Every time you bring it up all you do is prove to everyone that you don't know what you are talking about and have to resort to unrelated topics to advance your position.

Haha, sure, sure.  Yes, my references to how ludicrous religious claims are definitely means I don't know what I'm talking about.

Meanwhile, though, your failed attempt at quote-mining and denial of valid evidence only makes you more right.  I always love watching you contradict yourself.

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You might fool many idiots around here into thinking you have a clue and your arguments are good.

Whoa, calling your userbase idiots?  That doesn't seem very smart.

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But to those of us who actually understand logic and reasoning, we know better.

Ohio, if I had to choose between who was more rational, logical, and reasonable between you and a rabid chimp, I'd choose the chimp.  You are the antithesis of logic.  It's amazing you actually hold a job in your chosen profession, though I suppose your presence in that field simply speaks poorly of the requirements needed to enter said field.

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You are nothing but a moron who spews out a lot of words pretending to be intelligent.  

Ah yes, I pretend to be intelligent.  Because that's definitely something you can do.

Disregard the fact that you yourself have said I'm very intelligent and that you enjoy debating with me.  Disregard the fact that some individuals around here think I'm some kind of genius (an incorrect claim, but whatever, I'm not going to complain).  Yes, you're right, I'm just a moron who spews things (like misquotes trying to prove my point, amirite?) to seem intelligent.

If that's true, though, what would it say about your ability to argue?  Wouldn't exactly put it in a good light, considering I'm the one citing evidence and correcting your miserable attempts at portraying foremost evolutionists as detracting from the evidence of their fields.

But, you know, if you want to call me a moron, go right ahead.  It means about as much to me as you saying you like giving rimjobs or something.  It's information I couldn't care less to know, and will promptly forget not long after I submit this message.  You act like your opinions of people are universal, which is nothing more than laughable, especially when you consider what a whiny little bitch you are.






But again, you are trying to make this an argument about the merits of evolution.  That was not my original argument, and I think we can both agree it is futile.  My point was that your reliance on a candidate's position regarding evolution as a determining factor in your vote is ridiculous.

If your original point was that you thought my voting values was ridiculous, I think it's safe to say that you wouldn't have gone on your little venture of trying to make it seem like evolution was a indefensible theory by using misquotes of eminent biologists, paleontologists, etc.  Let's be honest: You were attempting to undermine the validity of evolutionary theory by indulging in an intellectually dishonest action: quote-mining.

I then made it my duty to show you why evolution was valid, in response to your attempt to discredit it via an appeal to (false) authority.  Now, if you'd like to simply voice your opinion that you think my voting habits are ridiculous, go right ahead.  I'll simply reply along the lines of "I'm sorry you feel that way" and we can go about our respective businesses.  That'll be the end of it.

So if you're being honest about your original intention, prove it.  If you drop the argument over the validity of evolution, I will make no further mention of it here.  Sound good?









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Oh, so you fully accept evolution?  That's good.  My apologies.

Except, I'm pretty sure you don't.
I have no dog in the race, although I do get quite amused (and did so before I became Christian, so your toss outs of religion in this thread have no meaning) when someone without proof says that I have evolved from a fish that humped a land creature and we somehow sprouted legs, arms, noses, and the most complex brains in the animal kingdom. I'm still waiting for nature to produce me a flying vehicle.  It sure is taking it's sweet ass time.

That's not what evolution says at all.

It seems like someone did you an injustice when they apparently explained evolution to you very poorly.  I you want to discuss it, I'd be more than happy to share what I know with you and do my best to help you understand, at least in a general sense, what it's all about.  But the way you're portraying evolution here tells me that either no one explained it to you, or someone severely misrepresented the information about evolution.



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reddit.com/r/atheism

Only ~200,000 people who it would matter to on the internet alone.  Granted, it's down right now, so you can't actually look.  r/science and r/askscience too, most likely.
SOPA  >:(  Anyway, is evolution a more important issue to the country and it's people when it comes to picking a leader at this particular time?

Probably not, considering most of the country is evangelical Christian and a good chunk of them likely dismiss evolution on religious grounds.  That doesn't mean that the issue is not important, nor does it mean that it is not important to many people, myself among them.

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Nowhere in those quotes is it implied that I don't care about economic issues.  You're quite literally dumb as rocks if you think that is the case.
I never said you didn't care about economic issues.  You just initially threw out the issue of evolution as if to sway 京阪 away from his vote.

I only mentioned that because I knew it would be something that he shared my concerns over.  I agree with a good portion of Paul's economic policies, but I am wary about his generally anti-science stance with regards to evolution, due primarily to his religious position.  The reason I asked 京阪 what I did was simply because I wanted to inform him about something he may have been unaware of.  I wasn't interested in starting a debate over it.

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No.  See, unlike you, I don't ignore people who disagree with me.  I'm able to handle disagreement without throwing a pity party, as I recall you doing because I was "persecuting" you over your religion.  Again, no thanks.  I can handle myself like a grown up.  Ignoring people is what children do.
I don't ignore you because you disagree with me, I ignore you because I think you're a piece of shit.

My wounds may never heal.  b)

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(It may not be the "Christian" thing to do, but I guess I will reap any consequences that God has in store for me.)

Lol.  For someone who actually believes in judgment after death, you seem quite okay with intentionally going against your god's wishes.  Of course, I don't really care one way or another.

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Why would I talk to you if I have nothing meaningful to say to you?

I don't know.  You might should ask yourself that, considering most of what is discussed on this site isn't really meaningful.

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I guess you're the one who can't handle being "ignored" since you're bumbling about it.

Bitch please.  Only reason I brought it up was to make you look bad.  ;)







TO HELL WITH Ron Paul. I'm voting for Turbo.

:-*


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 18, 2012, 05:42:20 pm
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That's not what evolution says at all.

It seems like someone did you an injustice when they apparently explained evolution to you very poorly.  I you want to discuss it, I'd be more than happy to share what I know with you and do my best to help you understand, at least in a general sense, what it's all about.  But the way you're portraying evolution here tells me that either no one explained it to you, or someone severely misrepresented the information about evolution.

Go for it.  But remember, I'm ignorant, and maybe a bit literate, so try to use small words.  ;)

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Probably not, considering most of the country is evangelical Christian and a good chunk of them likely dismiss evolution on religious grounds.  That doesn't mean that the issue is not important, nor does it mean that it is not important to many people, myself among them.
I share the same sentiments. 

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I wasn't interested in starting a debate over it.
lolok

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Lol.  For someone who actually believes in judgment after death, you seem quite okay with intentionally going against your god's wishes.  Of course, I don't really care one way or another.
Sure you don't.
But, with regards to my opinion of you...
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Opinions are not immune from change.


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Only reason I brought it up was to make you look bad.

lolol, I'm flattered.  ;)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 18, 2012, 05:48:04 pm
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That's not what evolution says at all.

It seems like someone did you an injustice when they apparently explained evolution to you very poorly.  I you want to discuss it, I'd be more than happy to share what I know with you and do my best to help you understand, at least in a general sense, what it's all about.  But the way you're portraying evolution here tells me that either no one explained it to you, or someone severely misrepresented the information about evolution.

Go for it.  But remember, I'm ignorant, and maybe a bit literate, so try to use small words.  ;)

If you're serious, I suggest we do it via PM so as to not upset anyone else.

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I wasn't interested in starting a debate over it.
lolok

Laugh if you want to, but my arguing when challenged does not necessarily mean I was looking for an argument to begin with.  It should be common knowledge by now, though, that I will argue if challenged.

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Lol.  For someone who actually believes in judgment after death, you seem quite okay with intentionally going against your god's wishes.  Of course, I don't really care one way or another.
Sure you don't.

I don't.  That's not to say that I wouldn't like for us to be cool.  Just means it's not going to ruin my afternoon if we aren't.

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But, with regards to my opinion of you...
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Opinions are not immune from change.

Well that's certainly an about-face.  Good to know, though.

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Only reason I brought it up was to make you look bad.

lolol, I'm flattered.  ;)

You should be.  Typically I just use what's put in front of me to do that, but for you I went the extra mile.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 18, 2012, 05:53:51 pm
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If you're serious, I suggest we do it via PM so as to not upset anyone else

Well, I'm jobless, and getting annoyed at the repetitiveness of the gym, so have at it.

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I don't.  That's not to say that I wouldn't like for us to be cool.  Just means it's not going to ruin my afternoon if we aren't.
Well then...That's a shocker.

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You should be.  Typically I just use what's put in front of me to do that, but for you I went the extra mile.
D'awwwe  :-*


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 18, 2012, 06:01:56 pm
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If you're serious, I suggest we do it via PM so as to not upset anyone else

Well, I'm jobless, and getting annoyed at the repetitiveness of the gym, so have at it.

Aight, sounds good.  You can send me any questions you have, or I can give you a general overview of it and we can go from there.  If you'd prefer the latter, though, you'll have to wait a bit since I have some homework I need to do.

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I don't.  That's not to say that I wouldn't like for us to be cool.  Just means it's not going to ruin my afternoon if we aren't.
Well then...That's a shocker.

Shouldn't be.  I don't intentionally make enemies.



Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 18, 2012, 06:06:55 pm
I guess a general overview.  My biggest issue is how we as humans are so complex, yet it's supposedly by "chance".


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 18, 2012, 06:15:50 pm
Well that's a good starting place.  I'll send you a PM as soon as I can.  O0


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ress on January 18, 2012, 06:23:16 pm
It's obvious that God made Adam and Eve and we are their children.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Keihan on January 18, 2012, 06:55:14 pm
I don't know what lies after this life, but I believe that my body dies, while my "soul" lives on.

yeh. Or maybe there is nothing at all. I don't know, son. I'm just human.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ress on January 18, 2012, 07:05:45 pm
What does Webster say about soul?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 19, 2012, 12:11:46 pm
lol @ turbo relying on wikipedia as his source that dogs came from wolves.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 19, 2012, 01:26:29 pm
b)

I'll take that as verification that you think this is still 2002.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 19, 2012, 01:30:01 pm
wow, good one   b)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 19, 2012, 01:34:32 pm
Whatever you say, champ.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on January 19, 2012, 02:29:59 pm
look what i foond LOLOLOL same examples and references LOLOLOL

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/zoology/mammals/dog2.htm

http://knol.google.com/k/the-dog-its-origins-evolution#

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/data/2002/01/01/html/ft_20020101.1.html

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090203070421AA5EE7s
5th answer

I also made some more "truly antagonizing no jk not antagonizing" pics for you, but they're on my other computer.   :)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 19, 2012, 03:27:53 pm
way to go jabba.  you made the same failure as turbo.  those links don't actually prove anything, but merely describe a process.  In order to come to the conclusion, you are forced to accept the conclusion as true first.  It is this circular reasoning I have had a problem with.  In order to believe dogs came from wolves, these people do nothing more than describe a process (i.e. natural or artificial selection) without offering proof of why we should believe those processes resulted in a wolf becoming a dog.

if you guys can't see the flaws in that reasoning, this is pointless.  stick to studying biology because studying logic areas such as law are well beyond your abilities.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Handass on January 19, 2012, 03:31:18 pm
Let me clarify this Ohio. Do you follow the creationists, evolutionists, or a neutral area?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Baw on January 19, 2012, 05:35:51 pm
Being a Christian also, I find it hypocritical that you two condemn Turbo for being hesitant in voting for a candidate that doesn't believe in Evolution, knowing good and well if an Atheist was running for president you'd think twice before voting for him.

In other news: Ron Paul was on my campus today giving a speech.

Stephen Colbert is going to be here tomorrow at 1 pm. And Anderson Cooper at 8 pm.

 8)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 19, 2012, 05:40:28 pm
I envy you.

Stephen Colbert is my hero, and I'd go gay for Anderson Cooper faster than you could say "Did CNN confirm?"


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 19, 2012, 06:39:04 pm
Being a Christian also, I find it hypocritical that you two condemn Turbo for being hesitant in voting for a candidate that doesn't believe in Evolution, knowing good and well if an Atheist was running for president you'd think twice before voting for him.


Maybe you should re-word your response.  I haven't "condemned" him at all.  

Also, I would hardly care if a candidate was atheist, so long as he addresses issues that affect our country and "fix" them. If he brought ideals that would harm our country do to his beliefs/non-beliefs you and I both know that they wouldn't fly without opposition.  


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 19, 2012, 07:09:30 pm
Ahem.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html#part5 (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html#part5)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 20, 2012, 08:05:33 am
Being a Christian also, I find it hypocritical that you two condemn Turbo for being hesitant in voting for a candidate that doesn't believe in Evolution, knowing good and well if an Atheist was running for president you'd think twice before voting for him.

In other news: Ron Paul was on my campus today giving a speech.

Stephen Colbert is going to be here tomorrow at 1 pm. And Anderson Cooper at 8 pm.

 8)


You are equating belief in evolution to religion.  Obviously that isn't a proper comparison, not to mention the complexities with such a general categorization as religion.  Belief in evolution is a singular topic, mostly unrelated to the politics of the position of president.  Religion encompasses many various viewpoints, so we can't quite narrow it down like that, and it also affects far more relevant issues to the position of president faces than does evolution.

THAT is why I find it strange to base your vote on whether or not they believe in evolution rather than considering many more relevant issues.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 20, 2012, 09:02:43 am
THAT is why I find it strange to base your vote on whether or not they believe in evolution rather than considering many more relevant issues.

I'd like to point out, once again, that I never said I wasn't voting for Paul.  Y'all made that assumption.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Handass on January 20, 2012, 09:39:52 am
Let me clarify this Ohio. Do you follow the creationists, evolutionists, or a neutral area?

ahem, I would just like to see this answered. Oh and if you could give some reasoning behind your stance that'd be wonderful.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 20, 2012, 09:46:07 am
THAT is why I find it strange to base your vote on whether or not they believe in evolution rather than considering many more relevant issues.

I'd like to point out, once again, that I never said I wasn't voting for Paul.  Y'all made that assumption.

It was certainly a reasonable inference.  Keihan said "Ron Paul".  Your response to him was "You voting for Ron Paul?"  Then he said if he was voting it would be for him.  Your response was "You know he doesn't believe in evolution, right?" 

It would be more than reasonable to infer from that that you were implying you are not voting for him, and further that his stance on evolution was an important factor in that choice.  There is really no other rational reason for you to have made those statements or posed that question if it weren't the case.  The only other interpretation of that statement would be if you were a staunch creationist and were supporting Keihan in his vote.  However I think even a blind moron could decipher that that isn't the case here.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 20, 2012, 09:48:40 am
Let me clarify this Ohio. Do you follow the creationists, evolutionists, or a neutral area?

ahem, I would just like to see this answered. Oh and if you could give some reasoning behind your stance that'd be wonderful.

I don't follow anyone.  I believe the Bible is truth.  I am not a follower of any man, nor espouse any man's doctrine.  But that isn't relevant to this topic so please don't start a discussion about it in this thread.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Handass on January 20, 2012, 11:26:26 am
That actually answers my question for me Ohio. If you believe in the Bible as truth that makes you a creationist broski. I was mainly asking to point out the hipocrisy of your argument that the specific example of speciation from wolves to dogs requires circular logic, which is the last thing anyone who follows the Bible should be saying.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 20, 2012, 12:29:16 pm
I espouse very few beliefs that most "creationists" believe.  The term "creationist" is far to vague to use it as a label for me.

The difference between an evolutionist using circular logic and a Christian believing God's Word is that I don't have any problem admitting that my position is based on faith.  The evolutionists claim there position is not, when in reality it requires just as much faith to believe evolution than the Bible.  You see the difference?  I admit my faith, evolutionists do not.  So while there is ample evidence the Bible is true, and nothing compelling that science has to offer to properly disprove it, I freely admit my faith.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 20, 2012, 01:18:10 pm
THAT is why I find it strange to base your vote on whether or not they believe in evolution rather than considering many more relevant issues.

I'd like to point out, once again, that I never said I wasn't voting for Paul.  Y'all made that assumption.

It was certainly a reasonable inference.  京阪 said "Ron Paul".  Your response to him was "You voting for Ron Paul?"  Then he said if he was voting it would be for him.  Your response was "You know he doesn't believe in evolution, right?"

Reasonable, sure.  It wasn't the correct one, though.

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It would be more than reasonable to infer from that that you were implying you are not voting for him, and further that his stance on evolution was an important factor in that choice.  There is really no other rational reason for you to have made those statements or posed that question if it weren't the case.

"I only mentioned that because I knew it would be something that he shared my concerns over.  I agree with a good portion of Paul's economic policies, but I am wary about his generally anti-science stance with regards to evolution, due primarily to his religious position.  The reason I asked 京阪 what I did was simply because I wanted to inform him about something he may have been unaware of.  I wasn't interested in starting a debate over it."

Seems pretty rational to me.

But please, by all means keep insisting that your mistaken assumption is correct.  Wouldn't be out of character at all.

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The only other interpretation of that statement according to my narrow understanding of that exchange would be if you were a staunch creationist and were supporting 京阪 in his vote.  However I think even a blind moron could decipher that that isn't the case here.

Damn straight, that wasn't the case.  Neither was it the case that I implied I wasn't voting for him.  You inferred that on your own, and you were mistaken.  Get the fuck over it.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 20, 2012, 01:20:41 pm
The evolutionists claim there position is not, when in reality it requires just as much faith to believe evolution than the Bible.

I lol'd hard.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Handass on January 20, 2012, 01:56:36 pm
I espouse very few beliefs that most "creationists" believe.  The term "creationist" is far to vague to use it as a label for me.

The difference between an evolutionist using circular logic and a Christian believing God's Word is that I don't have any problem admitting that my position is based on faith.  The evolutionists claim there position is not, when in reality it requires just as much faith to believe evolution than the Bible.  You see the difference?  I admit my faith, evolutionists do not.  So while there is ample evidence the Bible is true, and nothing compelling that science has to offer to properly disprove it, I freely admit my faith.

That still has nothing to do with the hypocrisy of your argument. There is no difference between circular logics, they are all the same thing. The difference is in the person admitting it or not, you're coming out now and admitting to it, which is a good thing, but it is still hypocritical to have a belief based in circular reasoning and try to use that same circular reasoning as an argument against someone.

tl;dr I'm ok with hypocrisy as long as the person sees why they have been, but don't try and justify that ****, just makes you seem retarded


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 20, 2012, 02:40:22 pm
You don't understand that it isn't hypocrisy to believe something by faith.  The definition of hypocrisy is "pretending to be something you are not."  My admission that faith is the basis for my beliefs is therefore not hypocrisy.  Get it?

The fact that I point out an evolutionist's circular logic has nothing to do with hypocrisy.  It is an attempt to get them to understand that their "science" is not as valid as they claim.  It is only pointing out their own hypocrisy, not stating that their circular logic alone requires condemnation of their position, as you claim and as would be a requirement to call me a hypocrite.  Get that?

tl:dr:  I do not condemn their circular logic as to the merits of their claim, but condemn it because they claim they aren't using circular logic and are therefore right in their position.  That isn't hypocritical.



Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 20, 2012, 02:44:19 pm
The evolutionists claim there position is not, when in reality it requires just as much faith to believe evolution than the Bible.

I lol'd hard.

I would expect that you would.  You clearly believe your position is supported by concrete proof.  And you are mistaken and that's fine.  I wouldn't expect you to agree with me on the faith required to hold your beliefs because you are under the assumption that they require none.  Duh.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ress on January 20, 2012, 02:58:27 pm
There is ample evidence that the bible is true?  Did I miss something or what?  I'd love to read up on some evidence confirming that a ghost knocked up a girl.  Hell, I'd love to see evidence that ghosts even exist.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 20, 2012, 02:58:36 pm
The evolutionists claim there position is not, when in reality it requires just as much faith to believe evolution than the Bible.

I lol'd hard.

I would expect that you would.  You clearly believe your position is supported by concrete proof.  And you are mistaken and that's fine.  I wouldn't expect you to agree with me on the faith required to hold your beliefs because you are under the assumption that they require none.  Duh.

No, see, you don't get it.  Science doesn't ask that you believe.  It states a claim and backs it up with evidence.  There is no belief.

Your denial of evidence so that your belief can be preserved does not make that evidence simply vanish.  You've yet to provide any actual instance of circular reasoning in evolution.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ress on January 20, 2012, 03:06:52 pm
Ohio, do you think gravity exists?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 20, 2012, 03:07:22 pm
YOU claim evolution is backed up with evidence because you believe that evidence is valid/true. 

What don't you understand about perception of evidence?  I deal in evidence daily and also deal with the fact that evidence is interpreted differently by many different people, and that different people will give different weight to pieces of evidence.

You choose to give substantial weight to certain things because you believe them to be true and their logic to be sound.  I see that same evidence and believe the logic to be flawed and find it contrary to evidence that I give greater weight.

Don't be so naive about science to think just because a scientist says it is so, that is must be merely because it's "science."


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 20, 2012, 03:12:04 pm
There is ample evidence that the bible is true?  Did I miss something or what?  I'd love to read up on some evidence confirming that a ghost knocked up a girl.  Hell, I'd love to see evidence that ghosts even exist.

Yes.  I believe many things in the universe, including the fossil record, support that the Bible is true.  I also believe the Holy Spirit (i.e. God) conceived a child, incarnating himself in the flesh.  I believe there is evidence of this given that this "child" rose from the dead and was seen of hundreds of different individuals at different times giving the same testimony.  Again, while my belief rests wholly on faith, I believe there is evidence to support it as well.

And yes I believe that God has put in place what we know as gravity and that under God's supervision and sustaining, it will perform just as we know it.  However I also believe that God has control over gravity and that if He so chose, he could change it.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 20, 2012, 03:16:28 pm
Why do my personal beliefs fascinate you guys so much?  Is my opinion that important to you guys?  I'm guessing these are pathetic attempts to try to draw out my position on a subject you think you can win an argument on, rather than true interest in the answers.  Which is actually pretty sad on your parts.  I thought it was bad that turbo constantly wanted to argue the merits of evolution despite it not being the issue at hand, but at least it was tangentially relevant.  You guys have taken it to a whole new low.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 20, 2012, 03:20:42 pm
YOU claim evolution is backed up with evidence because you believe that evidence is valid/true.

Again, belief has nothing to do with it.  Stop trying to make science as handicapped as your fairy tales.  The evidence is true regardless of whether or not you think it is.

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What don't you understand about perception of evidence?

I know that perception of evidence is completely irrelevant here.

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I deal in evidence daily and also deal with the fact that evidence is interpreted differently by many different people, and that different people will give different weight to pieces of evidence.

The evidence you deal with is not supported by repeatable tests and observances, because it is typically a retelling of events by people, who are inherently subjective.  The evidence you're getting is only evidence in a law setting.  Clearly you don't understand your terms.

I have evidence that standard gravity is exactly 9.80665 m/s^2.  Are you going to tell me that the evidence for this (gathered from repeated, observable tests) can somehow be interpreted differently by different people, thus rendering the evidence invalid?  Stupidest thing I've ever heard.

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You choose to give substantial weight to certain things because you believe them to be true and their logic to be sound.  I see that same evidence and believe the logic to be flawed and find it contrary to evidence that I give greater weight.

I don't choose to do anything related to evolution's evidence.  I either accept it or not, but that doesn't mean the evidence is invalid, which is what you delude yourself into believing.  I don't know how many times I'll have to say it, but the fact that you don't want to accept valid, repeatable, observable evidence does not make that evidence vanish.

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Don't be so naive about science to think just because a scientist says it is so, that is must be merely because it's "science."

Are you fucking retarded?  A scientist didn't just say "OH HEY GUIZ I THINK EVOLUTION IS A THING."  It is the pillar of biology.  The overwhelming majority of biologists know for a fact that evolution is real.  The rest work at community colleges.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Handass on January 20, 2012, 03:31:02 pm
Why do my personal beliefs fascinate you guys so much?  Is my opinion that important to you guys?  I'm guessing these are pathetic attempts to try to draw out my position on a subject you think you can win an argument on, rather than true interest in the answers.  Which is actually pretty sad on your parts.  I thought it was bad that turbo constantly wanted to argue the merits of evolution despite it not being the issue at hand, but at least it was tangentially relevant.  You guys have taken it to a whole new low.

actually i was just pointing out the hypocrisy, i dont let that **** slide, wouldn't have mattered to me who it was doing it. i apologize if it seems like i was singling you out, but i generally just skim through turbos posts as they're tl;dr so if i missed anything blame that.

also evolution is the issue at hand as the whole argument was started over a political candidate stating they were opposed to evolution.

also lolololol at us taking it to "a whole new low"
my hypocrisy thing was actually pretty damn relevant as you were attacking someone for using what you claim is circular reasoning, yet you yourself follow a circular logic based faith


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: OhioLawyer on January 20, 2012, 03:40:07 pm
Again, Handy, you don't get it.  I didn't attack him for using circular reasoning.  I attacked him for using circular reasoning and not admitting it.  Big difference.

And Turbo, you saying something is testable, repeatable, and verifiable doesn't make it so.  All it means is YOU think it is.  And yes, I will concede that many many people hold your position on that evidence.  But the number of people who believe something doesn't render it true.  You are just ignorant that EVERY fact is subject to belief.  Even those things we think are "facts" (i.e. gravity as you pointed out) still require one's accepting of it.  We all know gravity is 9.80665 m/s^2.  That is because we all believe that the tests that prove it are accurate and reliable.  I believe the tests you claim prove evolution are neither accurate nor reliable.  THAT is where science is ALWAYS open to belief as you deny.  The testing of the hypothesis MUST be valid.  And the validity of the test and evidence is ALWAYS up for debate.  The fact that you don't think so means you don't understand what science is all about.  A good scientist will ALWAYS question methodology.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ress on January 20, 2012, 03:45:13 pm
lol


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 20, 2012, 03:50:57 pm
And Turbo, you saying something is testable, repeatable, and verifiable doesn't make it so.

That's not what I'm claiming.  Damn you're thick.

I accept that it is testable, repeatable, and observable because it is.  Not the other way around.

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All it means is YOU think it is.

No.  No, no, no.  I don't "think" it is.  I know it is.  It's proven to be so.  It's that simple.

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And yes, I will concede that many many people hold your position on that evidence.  But the number of people who believe something doesn't render it true.

Don't recall claiming it did.

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You are just ignorant that EVERY fact is subject to belief.  Even those things we think are "facts" (i.e. gravity as you pointed out) still require one's accepting of it.

Holy fuck.

It does not matter whether or not you accept it.  Standard gravity would be standard gravity even if no human being were around to test it.  It is a fact independent of your acceptance or denial of it.  Get that through your thick skull.

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We all know gravity is 9.80665 m/s^2.  That is because we all believe that the tests that prove it are accurate and reliable.

It has nothing to do with belief.  It will be the same whether or not you believe in it.

How egotistical of you to presume that reality bends around your preferences.

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I believe the tests you claim prove evolution are neither accurate nor reliable.

And you can claim that until you start to decay, until the life leaves your body, but it won't change the fact that the evidence is valid.  Not only that, but you haven't ever explained why you don't accept them.  You've yet to offer any evidence whatsoever that the tests are not reliable.  You just keep claiming they are.

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THAT is where science is ALWAYS open to belief as you deny.

It has nothing to do with a belief.  If you have a hypothesis, you test it.  The results determine what you know, not what you believe.  Belief is the acceptance of something without evidence, which couldn't be any more different than what science is.

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The testing of the hypothesis MUST be valid.  And the validity of the test and evidence is ALWAYS up for debate.

If you truly think this, I'd like to hear how you think the gravitational constant is up for debate.

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The fact that you don't think so means you don't understand what science is all about.  A good scientist will ALWAYS question methodology.

Questioning methodology is one thing.  Saying that because you personally disagree with the methodology and that, consequently, the evidence is invalid is another thing entirely.  You're doing the latter.  You haven't even proposed how the methodology could possibly be wrong, let alone actually proven how it could be so.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Handass on January 20, 2012, 03:53:28 pm
Again, Handy, you don't get it.  I didn't attack him for using circular reasoning.  I attacked him for using circular reasoning and not admitting it.  Big difference.

nope, thats most definitely the same thing, the latter just has a reason attached to it. I'll even bold the parts of your sentence that are identical(save for one verb tense). attacking someone for something because of a certain reason is still attacking somone. just like murdering someone because they didn't admit to doing something. its still murder broski, whatever the reason


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ress on January 20, 2012, 04:21:35 pm
The Earth is flat because I believe it is.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 20, 2012, 04:25:08 pm
I question the methodology of mitosis, therefore cells do not divide and replicate themselves.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on January 20, 2012, 04:37:46 pm


Are you fucking retarded?  A scientist didn't just say "OH HEY GUIZ I THINK EVOLUTION IS A THING."  It is the pillar of biology.  The overwhelming majority of biologists know for a fact that evolution is real.  The rest work at community colleges.
This list may not be the "majority", nor biologists.

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?id=660


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on January 20, 2012, 04:55:54 pm
How many times will I have to repeat that Darwinism =/= evolution?

Darwinism refers to a school of thought regarding genetic mutation and natural selection as it pertains to the fossil record.  The dissenters likely favor punctuated equilibrium as a more viable alternative.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on January 23, 2012, 10:45:40 pm
All people are afraid.

No one knows what they’re doing.

Everything is getting worse.

Some people deserve to die.

Your money is worthless.

No one is properly dressed.

At least one of your children will disappoint you.

The system is rigged.

Your house will never be completely clean.

All teachers are incompetent.

There are people who really dislike you.

Nothing is as good as it seems.

Things don’t last.

No one is paying attention.

The country is dying.

God doesn’t care.


Sshhhhhh.....


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on January 24, 2012, 01:16:21 pm
All people are afraid.

No one knows what they’re doing.

Everything is getting worse.

Some people deserve to die.

Your money is worthless.

No one is properly dressed.

At least one of your children will disappoint you.

The system is rigged.

Your house will never be completely clean.

All teachers are incompetent.

There are people who really dislike you.

Nothing is as good as it seems.

Things don’t last.

No one is paying attention.

The country is dying.

God doesn’t care.


Sshhhhhh.....
That was kechua.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 14, 2012, 04:54:56 am
So while there is ample evidence the Bible is true, and nothing compelling that science has to offer to properly disprove it

god damn this makes me sad to read, this man is a registered voter. no offense to anyone


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Termin8or on June 14, 2012, 07:14:00 am
What I find funny is that every single "discussion" he gets into, it's filled with hypocrisy, contradictions, I'm right and you're wrong no matter what the facts are, you are arguing something that's off topic, I do this for a living so I'm the best at it, I know more about every topic that I put my two cents worth in on, you're not allowed to use that argument but I am, you need to prove that I'm wrong and I don't have to prove anything, etc., etc., etc. I could go on all day.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 14, 2012, 10:34:15 am
I could go on all day.

Which is how these arguments go.  I would know; I've been in a few.



And I'm pretty sure this is the argument that caused Ohio to go MIA.  Which sucks.  It did get too heated, and I regret that.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 14, 2012, 03:47:32 pm
What I find funny is that every single "discussion" he gets into, it's filled with hypocrisy, contradictions, I'm right and you're wrong no matter what the facts are, you are arguing something that's off topic, I do this for a living so I'm the best at it, I know more about every topic that I put my two cents worth in on, you're not allowed to use that argument but I am, you need to prove that I'm wrong and I don't have to prove anything, etc., etc., etc. I could go on all day.

exactly, so much "holier than thou" BS


I hate to say it, but anyone that rejects evolution is either ignorant or delusional.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Baw on June 14, 2012, 07:13:08 pm
I don't think some people realize that Evolution and Creationism can exist at the same time, that Evolution /=/ The Big Bang Theory, and that humans evolved from monkeys is just a hypothesis not the basis of Evolution.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 14, 2012, 07:16:59 pm
Creationism states that fauna and flora were created just as they appear today.  So, no, evolution and creationism are not compatible.

Also, evolution specifically says that humans did not evolve from monkeys.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Baw on June 14, 2012, 07:26:26 pm
Creationism states that fauna and flora were created just as they appear today.
Sorry, but I need a Bible verse for that.


Sorry if I'm using wrong terms, by Creationism I'm just talking about the Bible.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 14, 2012, 07:41:27 pm
Creationism states that fauna and flora were created just as they appear today.
Sorry, but I need a Bible verse for that.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, the seas, and all that was in them.

Then he made Adam and Eve.  Humans.

That's all in Genesis.

And if you trace the genealogies given in the Bible, you get to approximately 6,000 years in the past.  That's (unfortunately) why Young Earth Creationism is a thing.

So, following that logic, we've had 6,000 years of evolutionary development.  In other words, we've had almost no evolutionary development whatsoever, because 6,000 years is an insanely small amount of time even compared to the rise of the genus homo (~2.4 million years ago), which includes humans and their close relatives.


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Sorry if I'm using wrong terms, by Creationism I'm just talking about the Bible.

That's what I assumed you meant, so we're on the same page.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Baw on June 14, 2012, 08:35:27 pm
Creationism states that fauna and flora were created just as they appear today.
Sorry, but I need a Bible verse for that.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, the seas, and all that was in them.

Then he made Adam and Eve.  Humans.

That's all in Genesis.

And if you trace the genealogies given in the Bible, you get to approximately 6,000 years in the past.  That's (unfortunately) why Young Earth Creationism is a thing.

So, following that logic, we've had 6,000 years of evolutionary development.  In other words, we've had almost no evolutionary development whatsoever, because 6,000 years is an insanely small amount of time even compared to the rise of the genus homo (~2.4 million years ago), which includes humans and their close relatives.

See, that's where I'm like "Ok, it says God created them but not that he didn't allow them to evolve." Like, maybe it just means the species in the Earth. It never says that God didn't allow them to change.

The genealogy disproves that Evolution and Creationism could exist together though, going by the Bible.





Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 14, 2012, 09:14:54 pm
I don't think some people realize that Evolution and Creationism can exist at the same time, that Evolution /=/ The Big Bang Theory, and that humans evolved from monkeys is just a hypothesis not the basis of Evolution.

Evolution implies that there was no original human, that humans evolved over incredibly long periods of time through an incredibly slow process. (According to evolution), you can't just go back in tim, point to a date, and say, "Look! There's the first human being!" because it was so slow. I mean, we have 98% identical DNA to monkeys, and how long ago did our common ancestor exist? Millions and millions of years to change 2% of our DNA.

My point is, no original human (obviously) contradicts the story of Adam and Eve and all that Genesis stuff. With no Adam and Eve, you get no original sin, nothing for Jesus to die for, and it all comes down from there.

I think that anyone that accepts evolution and creation is a yay bit delusional (not a good word because it has such a negative connotation, maybe rightfully so). When you (in general, not you Baw or whatevs) try to reconcile such polar opposite world views, it makes you (^) look kinda off your rocker, IMO.

/endrant


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 14, 2012, 09:33:19 pm
See, that's where I'm like "Ok, it says God created them but not that he didn't allow them to evolve." Like, maybe it just means the species in the Earth. It never says that God didn't allow them to change.

True, but it does say that Adam was the first man and Eve the first woman, depending on your version.  And you don't call non-humans man or woman.

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The genealogy disproves that Evolution and Creationism could exist together though, going by the Bible.

Pretty much.  And you know, I honestly wish that weren't so.  I'd be perfectly fine with people believing in their god if they also acknowledged the reality of scientific knowledge.  But that's rarely the case, at least in my part of the world.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 14, 2012, 09:55:33 pm
Fun fact: 99.86% of earth and life scientists accept the theory of evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution#cite_note-nihrecord-27

Yet, 44% of US citizens reject it entirely, believing in Young Earth creationism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution#cite_note-130



Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 14, 2012, 10:11:24 pm
Anti-intellectualism.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on June 15, 2012, 09:55:26 am
you can't just go back in tim
I can if he asks nicely.   ^-^


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 15, 2012, 05:23:14 pm
 :P


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 15, 2012, 11:53:52 pm

True, but it does say that Adam was the first man and Eve the first woman, depending on your version.  And you don't call non-humans man or woman.


Question about this: Would this not lead to incest between the people? If Adam and Eve were the first people here, they had to reproduce with each other, which would leave their children to reproduce amongst themselves. Seeing as the bible forbids incest, God set us up for failure, ergo, we should worship Satan.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 15, 2012, 11:58:21 pm
Yes, that's one of the first things that's wrong with the Biblical creation story.

If you really want to get into a moral dilemma, think about this: God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  They ate from the tree and thus gained knowledge of good and evil.

Hence, we must assume that they were previously ignorant to good and evil.  Thus they had no means by which to understand that disobeying God was a sin, thus their punishment was undeserved, thus original sin is really just the result of a cruel god toying with his creations.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 16, 2012, 12:48:06 am
^one of 10,004,039,594,233 immoral teachings in the Bible.

one thing i asked myself when i finally started reading genesis a few years ago: if adam and eve were white, how do we have different races? somewhere down the line, if the bible is true, somebody **** a chimp.



Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 16, 2012, 12:54:36 am
Actually, if the Bible is true, we should all look like your typical Middle Eastern person.  But that doesn't sit will with people like my parents, so that's not the image we see in Sunday school.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Baw on June 16, 2012, 10:10:16 am
TIL.

God is an asshole.

Now some Louis CK for comic relief.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejFDw4yz56o


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on June 18, 2012, 08:06:12 pm
^one of 10,004,039,594,233 immoral teachings in the Bible.

one thing i asked myself when i finally started reading genesis a few years ago: if adam and eve were white, how do we have different races? somewhere down the line, if the bible is true, somebody ****ed a chimp.


So you're saying certain races are descended from chimps?   :P


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Baw on June 18, 2012, 09:11:53 pm
^one of 10,004,039,594,233 immoral teachings in the Bible.

one thing i asked myself when i finally started reading genesis a few years ago: if adam and eve were white, how do we have different races? somewhere down the line, if the bible is true, somebody ****ed a chimp.


So you're saying certain races are descended from chimps?   :P
I know, that how I read it.
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/135/sw50sw8sw578.gif)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 18, 2012, 09:42:10 pm
Nah.  According to most Southern Baptists, you get black people from Cain, because God "marked" Cain after the whole murdered-his-brother thing.  This obviously explains why black people have been shat on throughout history, because "When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth."

I sh** you not, my father actually believes this (routinely proclaims that blacks are "cursed by god" at family gatherings) and uses it as justification for his blatant racism.

Oh, and Asians/Native Americans are just products of "micro" evolution, which isn't really a thing in the way they use it.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 18, 2012, 10:00:09 pm
Nah.  According to most Southern Baptists, you get black people from Cain, because God "marked" Cain after the whole murdered-his-brother thing.  This obviously explains why black people have been shat on throughout history, because "When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth."

I sh** you not, my father actually believes this (routinely proclaims that blacks are "cursed by god" at family gatherings) and uses it as justification for his blatant racism.

Oh, and Asians/Native Americans are just products of "micro" evolution, which isn't really a thing in the way they use it.

Sadly enough, my dad was the same way. I wasn't there when he died, but my brother was and he was talking about how he refused to talk to a black nurse in the hospital, because he felt it would affect him in the "afterlife."


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 18, 2012, 11:42:06 pm
I will never understand why a human being would want to hate and fear his fellow human beings.  My condolences about your dad.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 08:33:58 am
People are so terrified of what happens to them when they die that they totally ignore the life they have now. Fear of the afterlife creates fear of being wrong.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 10:44:54 am
Yeah, I experienced that firsthand.  It's amazing what telling a kid he'll go to hell to be tortured forever will do to his psyche.

I want to see indoctrination considered as child abuse before I die.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 11:13:25 am
My biggest issue is that no one is born any sort of religion. No one pops out and starts looking for a church. Religious schools shouldn't exist, because kids are far too impressionable to be discussing a totally abstract concept. Teach them what we know as fact, let them believe what they want.

Unfortunately, with the way society is constructed, no President or Presidential Candidate would be willing to make that kind of risk. Even now, it's something ridiculous like 60% of American's would not vote for an Atheist President.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 12:20:11 pm
Hell, it's still illegal for atheists to hold public office in some Southern states.  Mine is one of them.

And I couldn't agree more about how wrong it is that religious schools exist.  I was sent to one for six years, where we had daily Bible classes and praise/worship gatherings.  We prayed every morning.  There was no alternative opinion.  I learned about sex through the internet, because no one (not even in my public middle or high school) thought it might be a good idea to educate teenagers about ways to prevent having a kid at 14 years old.  And yes, that happened.

I honestly didn't think for myself until I was senior in high school.  I couldn't have thought for myself until then, because my entire life was about religion.  We went to church twice on Sundays, once every Wednesday, went to church functions on Saturday, went to Vacation Bible School once a year, attended a Christian summer daycare every year, read devotionals on the way to school, listened to Christian music almost exclusively, watched stuff like Veggie Tales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veggie_Tales) regularly, and read the Bible as a family at least once a night.

I was terrified of death, because I didn't know how I could know if I was a "real" Christian.  I couldn't sleep when it was storming outside because I had to listen for tornadoes.  I was worried I wouldn't hear the sirens and that I would die before I could beg God to forgive me of my sins so I could be sure I'd go to heaven.

I was lied to, manipulated, and brainwashed.  And my case isn't unique as far as those activities go.  Most people that I know do the exact same things.  The difference is that they never think about it like I did.

When I told some of my friends I didn't believe, one said something to the effect that I was doing it because "it was easy".  I almost hit him.  It would be so easy to go through life believing in a god that loves me, because I would also be surrounded by people who would praise me for my "godliness" (because, believe me, I was one hell of a godly kid) and accept me no matter what.  Moms would tell their daughters to marry a godly man and point to me as an example.  Life would be so easy if I could delude myself into believing a lie.  But I can't do that.




Didn't mean to write a novel on the subject, but there it is.  I hate religion and what it does to people.  If it weren't for the Internet, I'd be alone.  I'm one atheist in a sea of theists.  My sister reads devotionals with my mom every day.  My father quotes scripture about the end times to justify his claim that Obama is the anti-Christ.  I hate religion.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 12:28:45 pm
I was lucky in the fact that I already had a sister that was Atheist. She was kicked out of the house while I still considered myself Catholic, but she made me think more then I ever had before. I was the same way though, in just doing was I was told was right. I participated in communion, prayer, confirmation and confession believing I had to because I was never given an alternative. In a city full of Italian descendants, no one went to a public school.

My parents weren't quite as strict in enforcing me to read the bible or go to mass multiple times per week, but it was insane.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 12:38:24 pm
The entire thing is just wrong.  But hearing stories like yours which are so similar to mine are what give me hope that we'll see an end to this one day.  If we could get out of it, others will too.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on June 19, 2012, 01:10:18 pm
"I hate religion and what it does to people."

I don't.  If it weren't for learning of christianity I would have continued to cheat on my wife, use drugs, drink constantly, and be a ****ty father to my children like my parents were to me.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 01:12:43 pm
OH WELL THEN CLEARLY RELIGION IS GOOD MY BAD

You became a good person of your own volition.  You just needed motivation and unfortunately found god.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on June 19, 2012, 01:18:52 pm
Nah, never meant it was the greatest thing.  Fanatic freaks and hypocrites are what make religion look bad.

And yes, I found God, but I had other "influences" around me including atheists telling me to just "live life to the fullest", and she'll never find out.  They said how stupid it was to tell her.  I was called a disser because I chose to stay at home with my son and wife.  I was called a traitor because I attended Church on Sundays instead of hanging out.  So yeah, I see the benefits of God's influence.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 01:35:18 pm
If you need religion to tell you how to be a good person, I feel sorry for you.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 01:41:49 pm
Nah, never meant it was the greatest thing.  Fanatic freaks and hypocrites are what make religion look bad.

I love how this is always the go-to response in defense of religion.

I'll let you in on a secret: When someone like Rick Perry or Rick Santorum or Michelle Bachmann can be so popular amongst Christians, you can no longer say that hypocrites and fanatics are what makes your religion awful.  Their crazy is basically par for the course at that point.

Quote
And yes, I found God, but I had other "influences" around me including atheists telling me to just "live life to the fullest", and she'll never find out.  They said how stupid it was to tell her.  I was called a disser because I chose to stay at home with my son and wife.  I was called a traitor because I attended Church on Sundays instead of hanging out.

Sounds like you had shtty friends.  Has nothing to do with religion or lack thereof.

Quote
So yeah, I see the benefits of God's influence.

Except it's not god's influence.  It's you doing what you knew you needed to do.  What you're saying is that evidently you can't be a good person without god, which is pretty concerning.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 02:17:07 pm
turbo, i will pray for you. i weep for you and your kind. god gave you good parents, and you still defy him. I serve a very real god, and he has blessed me beyond measure. As well as this country. He has saved so many people, and turned their life around! Praise The Lord Jesus Christ!  And Karter, keep up the fight against evil, bro.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ps358 on June 19, 2012, 02:20:17 pm
Gtfo.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 02:24:13 pm
thats original. id like to see you silence , gods words


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 02:26:38 pm
i have a love for ALL mankind. even you ps3


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Keihan on June 19, 2012, 02:29:16 pm
"I hate religion and what it does to people."

I don't.  If it weren't for learning of christianity I would have continued to cheat on my wife, use drugs, drink constantly, and be a ****ty father to my children like my parents were to me.

If that's true, then it's because you're a lost soul.

When you say "learning of christianity", you mean learning to be be compassionate and respectful/friendly to others. That's the golden rule in life, really -- to be kind to others and treat others how you would want to be treated.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 02:29:21 pm
and jesus said, i am the way, the truth, and the light. no man shall meet the father, but by me.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 02:35:04 pm
You must be born again, to enter the kingdom of heaven...... it dosent matter how good you are. YOU MUST BELIEVE and be saved, by praying to god, and asking him to save you. We are all born sinners and need forgivness.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on June 19, 2012, 02:37:41 pm
turbo, i will pray for you. i weep for you and your kind. god gave you good parents, and you still defy him. I serve a very real god, and he has blessed me beyond measure. As well as this country. He has saved so many people, and turned their life around! Praise The Lord Jesus Christ!  And Karter, keep up the fight against evil, bro.
I realize you're trying to be funny or whatever, but Turbo obviously went through a really hard time and calling him and "his kind" a disappointment because he doesn't appreciate his dad's hatred of blacks makes you a huge cunt. Trolling or not, you're a bad person to the core.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ps358 on June 19, 2012, 02:39:14 pm
He's an alt, an annoying alt.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on June 19, 2012, 02:48:58 pm
"I hate religion and what it does to people."

I don't.  If it weren't for learning of christianity I would have continued to cheat on my wife, use drugs, drink constantly, and be a ****ty father to my children like my parents were to me.

If that's true, then it's because you're a lost soul.

When you say "learning of christianity", you mean learning to be be compassionate and respectful/friendly to others. That's the golden rule in life, really -- to be kind to others and treat others how you would want to be treated.

First thing: who are you to say I'm a lost soul? On what grounds do you judge me?  How well do you know me and my situation?

Second: I knew of the golden rul long before becoming Christian.  I was just less conscious about it then than I am now.  I only gave a crap about myself and those who I though gave a crap about me, which was absurd.  We should love and respect everyone and even if we don't see eye to eye, look for good qualities in everyone because we're all human beings capable of compassion, I just believe that sometimes it has to be taught or discovered. Why am I being scrutinized for being one of those people?  Had I not made a change would that make me acceptable and void from the scrutiny I receive?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 02:49:40 pm
""The bible should be one sheet of paper, and on that sheet of paper it should say: 'Try not to be a cunt," and if you do that everyday, you'll be a good person." - Jim Jeffries


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 02:50:52 pm
Had I not made a change would that make me acceptable and void from the scrutiny I receive?

No.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on June 19, 2012, 02:52:31 pm
Thank you.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Keihan on June 19, 2012, 02:52:50 pm
""The bible should be one sheet of paper, and on that sheet of paper it should say: 'Try not to be a cunt," and if you do that everyday, you'll be a good person." - Jim Jeffries

This.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 02:53:08 pm
turbo didnt go through anything horrible. a racist dad, WOW! he made his choices.  I wont tolerate atheists, implying god is bad, when we owe everything to him. Im only doing what any christian would do. spreading the good news. that is, salvation. Im saved by grace, through faith.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ps358 on June 19, 2012, 02:55:11 pm
Just ****.
What religion are you?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 02:55:50 pm
Thank you.

I don't think you should be thanking me for that comment. You were arguably a "bad" person before religion, and if you didn't change, you'd still be a "bad" person.

I use quotation marks because the definition of bad is ambiguous.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on June 19, 2012, 02:56:20 pm
"I hate religion and what it does to people."

I don't.  If it weren't for learning of christianity I would have continued to cheat on my wife, use drugs, drink constantly, and be a ****ty father to my children like my parents were to me.

If that's true, then it's because you're a lost soul.

When you say "learning of christianity", you mean learning to be be compassionate and respectful/friendly to others. That's the golden rule in life, really -- to be kind to others and treat others how you would want to be treated.

First thing: who are you to say I'm a lost soul? On what grounds do you judge me?  How well do you know me and my situation?

Second: I knew of the golden rul long before becoming Christian.  I was just less conscious about it then than I am now.  I only gave a crap about myself and those who I though gave a crap about me, which was absurd.  We should love and respect everyone and even if we don't see eye to eye, look for good qualities in everyone because we're all human beings capable of compassion, I just believe that sometimes it has to be taught or discovered. Why am I being scrutinized for being one of those people?  Had I not made a change would that make me acceptable and void from the scrutiny I receive?
Not trying to be a pen0r, but I don't believe in a god and I treat everyone with respect. I hold doors, I say thank you, I let people go in front of me in line if we get there at the same time.. You don't have to be a christian to be a good person. It may give some people the motivation they need, but I know that for me when I believed in God my life was devoted to doing things that would prevent me from burning in eternal hell. That's hardly being selfless.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Laughing Turd on June 19, 2012, 02:58:09 pm
As much as I hate these religious debates it seems to be about the only thing that motivates you people to post more.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 02:59:50 pm
religion is pointless. im saved, thank god. thats whats important.and thats what the bible tells us salvation is a gift. all you need to do is take the gift. anyone can be good. but god knows their heart


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 03:01:14 pm
turbo, i will pray for you. i weep for you and your kind. god gave you good parents, and you still defy him. I serve a very real god, and he has blessed me beyond measure. As well as this country. He has saved so many people, and turned their life around! Praise The Lord Jesus Christ!  And Karter, keep up the fight against evil, bro.
I realize you're trying to be funny or whatever, but Turbo obviously went through a really hard time and calling him and "his kind" a disappointment because he doesn't appreciate his dad's hatred of blacks makes you a huge cunt. Trolling or not, you're a bad person to the core.

Thanks dude.  I think this is just Herman's way of telling me he doesn't like me locking his topics in Feedback.

We should love and respect everyone and even if we don't see eye to eye, look for good qualities in everyone because we're all human beings capable of compassion, I just believe that sometimes it has to be taught or discovered.

I agree.  But your God doesn't.

20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

That's the battle of Jericho, in case you didn't recognize it.  This happens shortly after god commands them to slaughter all men, women, children, and animals in the city.  It's really a feel-good story.

Need I bring up Sodom and Gomorrah?  God didn't seem interested in loving or respecting the people in those cities.

Quote
Why am I being scrutinized for being one of those people?

You're being scrutinized because you're attempting to excuse the damage religion does by saying it helped you.  You're being scrutinized because you evidently think you can't be good without a god.

Quote
Had I not made a change would that make me acceptable and void from the scrutiny I receive?

I think we're all in agreement that your change was good.  The problem is that you attribute it to religion instead of yourself.  You changed of your own accord, not because some invisible man in the sky changed you.

And what I find odd is that you say religion (Mormonism specifically, correct?) was what helped you be a better person for your wife and children, but my understanding of the Mormon doctrine leads to me believe it's a rather misogynistic religion.  Odd.



turbo didnt go through anything horrible. a racist dad, WOW! he made his choices.  I wont tolerate atheists, implying god is bad, when we owe everything to him. Im only doing what any christian would do. spreading the good news. that is, salvation. Im saved by grace, through faith.

It's okay.  When atheists are the majority, I promise I'll be at the head of the movement to refrain from treating Christians as they've treated us.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 03:01:20 pm
Fred Phelps everyone!


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: MrPillow on June 19, 2012, 03:03:47 pm
turbo didnt go through anything horrible. a racist dad, WOW! he made his choices.  I wont tolerate atheists, implying god is bad, when we owe everything to him. Im only doing what any christian would do. spreading the good news. that is, salvation. Im saved by grace, through faith.

god i fuckin hate it when christians just jump from one conclusion to the other.

'oh you don't believe in god? obviously that means you hate god and think he's a bad person'. damn dude like think about what you're **** trying to say.

also, relevant: (https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/542520_3497787768103_971652753_n.jpg)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 03:06:31 pm
Fred Phelps everyone!

One of his family members who left the church as soon as he turned 18 did an AMA (Ask Me Anything) on Reddit yesterday.  It's worth a read.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/v99eg/iaman_exmember_of_the_westboro_baptist_church/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/v99eg/iaman_exmember_of_the_westboro_baptist_church/)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 03:07:51 pm
turbo. how can you be so arrogant? you cant second guess , or understand gods purposes, and everything has a purpose. God is omnipatant. he knows the number of hairs on your head.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 03:10:50 pm
i know what im saying. how could turbo hate something he believes dont exist. think about that.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 03:11:12 pm
turbo. how can you be so arrogant? you cant second guess , or understand gods purposes, and everything has a purpose. God is omnipatant. he knows the number of hairs on your head.

He's omnipotent, eh?

First, the word you were looking for was omniscient.  That's the one that means "all-knowing".

Second, if god supposedly knows everything, can he know that he knows everything?

Third, if god is omnipotent and benevolent, why does sin exist?


I'm bored and you're going to serve as my entertainment for the next few hours.  Even though I'm roughly sure you're not religious and are just doing this as an attempt at humor, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: MrPillow on June 19, 2012, 03:12:44 pm
you didn't even address a single point that turbo made. what are you trying to prove? We understand that you believe God is great, and I'm happy you feel that way, I really am. It's great to be passionate about it, but posting "God is great" over and over is about as likely to convert Turbo as him posting "God isn't great" over and over is likely to convert you.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on June 19, 2012, 03:14:43 pm
Turbo, would you say you resent your parents for raising you they way they did? Is there a different term to use besides resent?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 03:15:33 pm
any one who openly denounces jesus, i really dont think theres any hope for them. i truely hurt for them


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 03:15:35 pm
Turbo, would you say you resent your parents for raising you they way they did? Is there a different term to use besides resent?

Nope, that about covers it.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on June 19, 2012, 03:17:25 pm
What, resent?

Edit: just saw it again.  This may have to wait till the weekend, but ill respond.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 03:17:33 pm
any one who openly denounces jesus, i really dont think theres any hope for them. i truely hurt for them

Jesus?  Psh, he doesn't matter that much.

Now, the holy spirit is the one you really don't want to piss off: "Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.” Mat. 12:31

And believe you me, I've done some blaspheming against the holy spirit.  I'm basically a lost cause.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 03:17:51 pm
What, resent?

Mhm.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ps358 on June 19, 2012, 03:20:05 pm
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u293/Roxy8469/Smileys/Popcorn2.gif)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: MrPillow on June 19, 2012, 03:22:17 pm
I'm just saying herman, going through your posting history you act nothing like a Christian except in this topic. I don't think you're really being serious. And when I click on your IP, it reveals to me that you're actually MOHsher, which pretty much confirms this.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 03:22:55 pm
What, resent?

Edit: just saw it again.  This may have to wait till the weekend, but ill respond.

If you have any intention of telling me that I'm in the wrong for resenting how they brainwashed me, you might want to rethink that.  It's been a while since I've intentionally gotten particularly nasty, but if you try that, it will happen.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ps358 on June 19, 2012, 03:23:37 pm
You mean MOSHER?

*Looks at my sig*

(smirk)


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 03:25:33 pm
i assure you my motives are pure. see turbo, you know the bible. you made your choice to not believe. i too was brought up in church. i chose to believe. no man is perfect. god forgivess racism , but not atheism. i use turbo as an example for anyone who my message reaches


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 03:27:12 pm
i assure you my motives are pure. see turbo, you know the bible. you made your choice to not believe. i too was brought up in church. i chose to believe. no man is perfect. god forgivess racism , but not atheism. i use turbo as an example for anyone who my message reaches


I prefer it that way.  The Christian god isn't worth believing in.  He's a bit of an asshole, really.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on June 19, 2012, 03:29:49 pm
What, resent?

Edit: just saw it again.  This may have to wait till the weekend, but ill respond.

If you have any intention of telling me that I'm in the wrong for resenting how they brainwashed me, you might want to rethink that.  It's been a while since I've intentionally gotten particularly nasty, but if you try that, it will happen.

I honestly appalled that you would think that I would do that.  You should know me better than that, bro.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on June 19, 2012, 03:30:26 pm
religion is pointless.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 03:31:56 pm
ok. im mosher. im not perfect. that dosent mean i cant spead the gospel. and bad people will always only accentuate the bad in others/ makes them feel better in their sin. id rather focus on the positive. thanks for keeping me honest, judge


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 03:32:12 pm
What, resent?

Edit: just saw it again.  This may have to wait till the weekend, but ill respond.

If you have any intention of telling me that I'm in the wrong for resenting how they brainwashed me, you might want to rethink that.  It's been a while since I've intentionally gotten particularly nasty, but if you try that, it will happen.

I honestly appalled that you would think that I would do that.  You should know me better than that, bro.

I didn't think you would, but I like to cover my bases.  O0


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: MrPillow on June 19, 2012, 03:32:44 pm
herman are you just going to completely ignore me since you know Im right? man the **** up to your mistakes


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 03:33:02 pm
ok. im mosher. im not perfect. that dosent mean i cant spead the gospel. and bad people will always only accentuate the bad in others/ makes them feel better in their sin. id rather focus on the positive. thanks for keeping me honest, judge

I jerk it to the thought of Christians sinning.  It makes me feel less crummy, especially when I'm eating a baby.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Baw on June 19, 2012, 03:34:45 pm
If you're MOSHER. Fuk off you're a fag. And I don't mean kechua.

CK explains:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IFloXOuLgA


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ps358 on June 19, 2012, 03:36:04 pm
ok. im mosher. im not perfect. that dosent mean i cant spead the gospel. and bad people will always only accentuate the bad in others/ makes them feel better in their sin. id rather focus on the positive. thanks for keeping me honest, judge

I jerk it to the thought of Christians sinning.  It makes me feel less crummy, especially when I'm eating a baby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=m71U2jJp09w


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: the KR3AT3R on June 19, 2012, 03:41:13 pm
What, resent?

Edit: just saw it again.  This may have to wait till the weekend, but ill respond.

If you have any intention of telling me that I'm in the wrong for resenting how they brainwashed me, you might want to rethink that.  It's been a while since I've intentionally gotten particularly nasty, but if you try that, it will happen.

I honestly appalled that you would think that I would do that.  You should know me better than that, bro.

I didn't think you would, but I like to cover my bases.  O0
By threatening to get nasty? :-\

Look, you've told me your story.  If I were to say something like that it would have been a long time ago.  Please, don't think I'm like all other "Christians" you know or know of. You're my boy, dude; we can talk civilly.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 03:41:48 pm
nothing you can say, or show me can shock me. i know the evil men do. thats why im glad not to be of this world, just in it. for now


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: MrPillow on June 19, 2012, 03:43:11 pm
ok. im mosher. im not perfect. that dosent mean i cant spead the gospel. and bad people will always only accentuate the bad in others/ makes them feel better in their sin. id rather focus on the positive. thanks for keeping me honest, judge

youre not even spreading the gospel. youre just insulting turbo for not being a christian. I refer back to this

you didn't even address a single point that turbo made. what are you trying to prove? We understand that you believe God is great, and I'm happy you feel that way, I really am. It's great to be passionate about it, but posting "God is great" over and over is about as likely to convert Turbo as him posting "God isn't great" over and over is likely to convert you.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Baw on June 19, 2012, 03:46:02 pm
nothing you can say, or show me can shock me. i know the evil men do. thats why im glad not to be of this world, just in it. for now
CALL IT EVIL THAT MEN DO, LORD FORGIVE ME FOR WHAT MY PEN DO, THIS IS FOR YOU SINS I CLEANSE YOU, BUT I WARN YOU IF YOU CONTINUE TO HELL I'LL SEND YOU, AND JUST THEN THE WIND BLEW AND IT SAID..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COqjmf9GUP0


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 03:55:11 pm
maybe you need to go back and read my words. and i never insulted turbo for not being christian. if i was less than kind, its because i just dont understand ,how anyone can not believe in god. just look around, life , and the human soul, is a miracle. look at the infinitism of the heavens. it humbling. even the american indians knew to worship a higher power,they just hadnt been told the truth.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 03:55:48 pm
There is no such thing as a soul.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ps358 on June 19, 2012, 03:58:52 pm
Ghosts are real, that's a soul.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 03:59:26 pm
maybe you need to go back and read my words. and i never insulted turbo for not being christian. if i was less than kind, its because i just dont understand ,how anyone can not believe in god. just look around, life , and the human soul, is a miracle. look at the infinitism of the heavens. it humbling. even the american indians knew to worship a higher power,they just hadnt been told the truth.

Yes, look at all the things we can't see. That will show me something.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: MrPillow on June 19, 2012, 04:00:08 pm
maybe you need to go back and read my words. and i never insulted turbo for not being christian. if i was less than kind, its because i just dont understand ,how anyone can not believe in god. just look around, life , and the human soul, is a miracle. look at the infinitism of the heavens. it humbling. even the american indians knew to worship a higher power,they just hadnt been told the truth.

you literally went from saying you didn't insult him to admitting you were 'less than kind'.

You really don't get it. Looks like I'm going to have to black and white this for you to understand a damn thing, mosher. I mean, I just dont understand , how anyone can believe in God? Just look around, life , and the human soul, is a product of science. You can't even find Heaven in the sky. It's humbling. Even the American indians knew to worship a higher power, and then future America beat their ass to the ground.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on June 19, 2012, 04:07:32 pm
Also, most of what Native Americans worshipped would be called "nature". Yes, some tribes prayed to a god or two, but most of their faith consisted of respecting the earth and trees and water and animals and.. Well, pretty much anything but a guy whose divine life was so amazing he needed to create them to entertain himself.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 04:11:32 pm
Basically pantheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism).


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on June 19, 2012, 04:15:12 pm
Yup. At least the way I was taught, anyway. So there's really no reason for mosher to cite Native Americans.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 04:15:41 pm
no, you said, i said, i was less than kind. i said, IF,IF i was less than kind, which i was very respectful. And yea future america did a number on this country


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: MrPillow on June 19, 2012, 04:17:45 pm
i never once said that brah. But you have insulted him several times 'evil' 'arrogant' do i really have to gon?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 04:25:55 pm
the more i read,here, the more i want to be a better christian. there is a real need, for me, in this godless world. you must have a child like faith in god. im seeing less of that everyday. and more turning away. just as the bible tells us. its all coming to pass. if you spent half the time in church ,you do on the computer, maybe you wouldnt be so blind. wise men still seek him


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 04:26:50 pm
yes go on


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 04:32:14 pm
Child like faith? As a child, I believed in boogie monsters, ghosts, religion and talking animals. Then I grew up, and shockingly, I no longer believe in any of them. Stop acting like you're six years old.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 04:32:36 pm
im just saying what god tells me. sorry if that offends you. the lord works in mysterious ways. so you can nit pic me all you want. hopefully some of this sinks in. and god will speak to you. i do what i can to endorse my saviour. its not much though, sadly


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 04:36:28 pm
God is telling you to post on a message board preaching about him instead of telling others around the world to help each other? What a self-righteous cunt he is.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on June 19, 2012, 04:36:57 pm
So what do I have to smoke in order for God to speak to me?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 04:41:42 pm
i believe in god, just like i once believed in santa clause. only difference is NOBODY is going to make me not believe in god. thats what seperates me from atheists. and scientists. the capacity to totally believe in something, i cant see or touch. and thats what is going to keep me out of hell. yes i still believe in hell, and the devil. no matter how this world wants me to think , its silly superstition


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 04:43:05 pm
i guess so... here i am. 


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 04:43:09 pm
i believe in god, just like i once believed in santa clause. only difference is NOBODY is going to make me not believe in god. thats what seperates me from atheists. and scientists. the capacity to totally believe in something, i cant see or touch. and thats what is going to keep me out of hell. yes i still believe in hell, and the devil. no matter how this world wants me to think , its silly superstition

That just makes you a moron.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 04:45:57 pm
for god to speak to you, all you need to do is go to a quiet spot, and start talking to him. pray. seek him.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 04:46:36 pm
so says you


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ps358 on June 19, 2012, 04:47:11 pm
so says you
When will you leave?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 04:48:41 pm
you can call me whatever you want, i still love you. the fact that your still here says alot


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 04:49:30 pm
when god wants me to


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 04:51:58 pm
Waiting for someone to tell him to go away/Non-existent person who's supposed to tell him = Undefined

We're screwed guys, he's here forever.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 05:12:18 pm
how narrow minded, to think, that something as complicated as your soul, dies. and we go into the great nothing after this life. no wonder people are so mean to one another. we are so small, in the time and space we live in, so, insignifacant. we have no right to be anything but in awl, of his creations. the heavens go on and on, never ending. infinite. we are so finite.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 05:17:16 pm
I don't think my soul dies, I think it doesn't exist.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 05:26:12 pm
anyone who talks bad about my god, gets my attention. i cant sit back and not speak my thoughts, this sermon was for anyone who does believe in god. in closing id like to say, give god the glory, and he will give you rest. heavenly father, continue to bless us, even though, we dont deserve it. may someone take something from all this, today, even it only be me....and my words fell on deaf ears.thank you lord, in jesus' name amen


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 05:34:06 pm
yea i know what you think. and now you know what i think


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 19, 2012, 05:36:37 pm
thats what seperates me from atheists. and scientists. the capacity to totally believe in something, i cant see or touch.

I don't want to believe. I want to know.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 05:42:12 pm
great, another one. my god, forgive them..... i do know, because i believe


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 05:53:01 pm
you either believe\know or you dont. its that simple.  dont turn my words around. they mean the same.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Zoraï on June 19, 2012, 06:13:24 pm
Well this was a fun topic. I do prefer reading Ohio-Turbo than this troll though. Ohio is at the very least believable, however unfortunate that may be.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: lightspeed_champion on June 19, 2012, 06:27:17 pm
Quote
Had I not made a change would that make me acceptable and void from the scrutiny I receive?

I think we're all in agreement that your change was good.  The problem is that you attribute it to religion instead of yourself.  You changed of your own accord, not because some invisible man in the sky changed you.

And what I find odd is that you say religion (Mormonism specifically, correct?) was what helped you be a better person for your wife and children, but my understanding of the Mormon doctrine leads to me believe it's a rather misogynistic religion.  Odd.

I think religion can be a force for good and influence good behavior. There's nothing wrong with living a moral life while being inspired by religious teachings. Religion isn't all bad.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 07:18:40 pm
Quote
Had I not made a change would that make me acceptable and void from the scrutiny I receive?

I think we're all in agreement that your change was good.  The problem is that you attribute it to religion instead of yourself.  You changed of your own accord, not because some invisible man in the sky changed you.

And what I find odd is that you say religion (Mormonism specifically, correct?) was what helped you be a better person for your wife and children, but my understanding of the Mormon doctrine leads to me believe it's a rather misogynistic religion.  Odd.

I think religion can be a force for good and influence good behavior. There's nothing wrong with living a moral life while being inspired by religious teachings. Religion isn't all bad.

The good parts of religious teachings are just moral common sense.

"Don't kill people.  Don't steal their stuff either.  Don't lie."

Did that come from the Koran, the Bible, Buddha, or a Hindu god?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 19, 2012, 07:31:22 pm
who are you to pick through the holy bible, for what suits you. its all good and holy, every book, every chapter, every verse, and every word. i could disect the lords prayer alone. and have food for thought for a week.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: lightspeed_champion on June 19, 2012, 07:31:37 pm
Quote
Had I not made a change would that make me acceptable and void from the scrutiny I receive?

I think we're all in agreement that your change was good.  The problem is that you attribute it to religion instead of yourself.  You changed of your own accord, not because some invisible man in the sky changed you.

And what I find odd is that you say religion (Mormonism specifically, correct?) was what helped you be a better person for your wife and children, but my understanding of the Mormon doctrine leads to me believe it's a rather misogynistic religion.  Odd.

I think religion can be a force for good and influence good behavior. There's nothing wrong with living a moral life while being inspired by religious teachings. Religion isn't all bad.

The good parts of religious teachings are just moral common sense.

"Don't kill people.  Don't steal their stuff either.  Don't lie."

Did that come from the Koran, the Bible, Buddha, or a Hindu god?

It doesn't matter where it comes from as long as it comes.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 07:52:24 pm
who are you to pick through the holy bible, for what suits you. its all good and holy, every book, every chapter, every verse, and every word. i could disect the lords prayer alone. and have food for thought for a week.

Thou shalt not wear clothes of mixed fabric or eat shellfish, as those things are abominations.  - Some crazy verse in Leviticus


Quote
Had I not made a change would that make me acceptable and void from the scrutiny I receive?

I think we're all in agreement that your change was good.  The problem is that you attribute it to religion instead of yourself.  You changed of your own accord, not because some invisible man in the sky changed you.

And what I find odd is that you say religion (Mormonism specifically, correct?) was what helped you be a better person for your wife and children, but my understanding of the Mormon doctrine leads to me believe it's a rather misogynistic religion.  Odd.

I think religion can be a force for good and influence good behavior. There's nothing wrong with living a moral life while being inspired by religious teachings. Religion isn't all bad.

The good parts of religious teachings are just moral common sense.

"Don't kill people.  Don't steal their stuff either.  Don't lie."

Did that come from the Koran, the Bible, Buddha, or a Hindu god?

It doesn't matter where it comes from as long as it comes.

Uh, okay.

What I'm saying, though, is that these religions don't have a monopoly on morality.  Their "good" teachings are basic morals found throughout human history.  So, if someone finds morality through religion, good for them, but they could have done it just as easily by thinking "Hmm, I wonder if I would be upset if someone did this to me?"


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 19, 2012, 09:14:39 pm
i've always found it funny that the leviticus verse that says homosexuality is an "abomination" is literally on the same exact page (in some bibles, obviously there are different versions) as the one that says eating prawns are an "abomination".

against kechua marriage? hope you don't like eating shrimp.

who are you to pick through the holy bible, for what suits you. its all good and holy, every book, every chapter, every verse, and every word. i could disect the lords prayer alone. and have food for thought for a week.

Thou shalt not wear clothes of mixed fabric or eat shellfish, as those things are abominations.  - Some crazy verse in Leviticus


Quote
Had I not made a change would that make me acceptable and void from the scrutiny I receive?

I think we're all in agreement that your change was good.  The problem is that you attribute it to religion instead of yourself.  You changed of your own accord, not because some invisible man in the sky changed you.

And what I find odd is that you say religion (Mormonism specifically, correct?) was what helped you be a better person for your wife and children, but my understanding of the Mormon doctrine leads to me believe it's a rather misogynistic religion.  Odd.

I think religion can be a force for good and influence good behavior. There's nothing wrong with living a moral life while being inspired by religious teachings. Religion isn't all bad.

The good parts of religious teachings are just moral common sense.

"Don't kill people.  Don't steal their stuff either.  Don't lie."

Did that come from the Koran, the Bible, Buddha, or a Hindu god?



It doesn't matter where it comes from as long as it comes.

Uh, okay.

What I'm saying, though, is that these religions don't have a monopoly on morality.  Their "good" teachings are basic morals found throughout human history.  So, if someone finds morality through religion, good for them, but they could have done it just as easily by thinking "Hmm, I wonder if I would be upset if someone did this to me?"

i've always felt this way. the acceptable morals from christianity, such as no killing, loving your neighbor, etc. are consistent with nearly every person out there. why bother with all the extra nonsensical baggage


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 10:09:01 pm
There's a reason why the "Golden Rule" is found in every culture.  It's really the basis of all morality, and a damn good one.  If everyone followed it, we wouldn't need gods or devils.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 19, 2012, 10:10:06 pm
Yeah, it's not kechua if it's in a three way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi7gwX7rjOw



Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 19, 2012, 10:22:00 pm
There's a reason why the "Golden Rule" is found in every culture.  It's really the basis of all morality, and a damn good one.  If everyone followed it, we wouldn't need gods or devils.

there are a few problems with it but I agree, start from there and build.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 19, 2012, 10:23:30 pm
I had successfully forgotten about 90s fashion and you had to ruin that.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 19, 2012, 10:43:59 pm
lmao, backwards adjustable will be back soon, i asked negrodamus #swag


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on June 19, 2012, 11:06:36 pm
There's a reason why the "Golden Rule" is found in every culture.  It's really the basis of all morality, and a damn good one.  If everyone followed it, we wouldn't need gods or devils.

there are a few problems with it but I agree, start from there and build.
A few problems? Not unless you have some sort of fetish for being murdered.

i believe in god, just like i once believed in santa clause. only difference is NOBODY is going to make me not believe in god. thats what seperates me from atheists. and scientists. the capacity to totally believe in something, i cant see or touch. and thats what is going to keep me out of hell. yes i still believe in hell, and the devil. no matter how this world wants me to think , its silly superstition
Kinda blew your cover there, bud.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 20, 2012, 12:02:23 am
the only flaw i think the golden rule has is that we can all universally agree Charles Manson should be punished greatly for what he did, but adhering to the golden rule should dictate that he should get away scot free, because I don't think I should spend a lifetime in jail. I'm treating Charles Manson in such a way that I certainly wouldn't wanna be treated, but I think everyone can agree this is the "right" line.

I prefer the moral guideline... "treat others how they should be treated."


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on June 20, 2012, 12:13:40 am
the only flaw i think the golden rule has is that we can all universally agree Charles Manson should be punished greatly for what he did, but adhering to the golden rule should dictate that he should get away scot free, because I don't think I should spend a lifetime in jail. I'm treating Charles Manson in such a way that I certainly wouldn't wanna be treated, but I think everyone can agree this is the "right" line.
But you also (hopefully) haven't murdered any innocent people.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Baw on June 20, 2012, 12:14:28 am
Quote from: OhioLawyer
You are just ignorant that EVERY fact is subject to belief.  Even those things we think are "facts" (i.e. gravity as you pointed out) still require one's accepting of it.

Lol this quote is hilarious. Let's all just stop believing gravity exist and we'll all start floating.



Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 20, 2012, 12:15:23 am
I look at it this way: If you intentionally kill, maim, or otherwise destroy another human being, you forfeit your rights as a human being.  That doesn't mean death is the only recourse; it just means that I won't feel bad if you die.  I'd prefer it that no one had to die, but we don't live in that world.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: JabbaScrub on June 20, 2012, 12:34:27 am
I'm a little more vengeful than that. Some injustices are worse than others, though. For instance that man who was beat to death while raping a 4yo? I don't care that he's dead, but I also wouldn't want him to get away with it. I would personally love to beat him to the point where he's permanently disfigured. On the other hand, I want someone to kill this couple:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BODWUohtXHo&feature=player_detailpage


I realize I might seem volatile, but those are my feelings. So. Yeah.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: dudedudedude for Moderator on June 20, 2012, 12:35:59 am
But is all murder bad?


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 20, 2012, 12:39:31 am
And see, I'd be okay with those two being put in a locked room with an angry bull.  They destroyed someone.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: lightspeed_champion on June 20, 2012, 03:32:32 am
the only flaw i think the golden rule has is that we can all universally agree Charles Manson should be punished greatly for what he did, but adhering to the golden rule should dictate that he should get away scot free, because I don't think I should spend a lifetime in jail. I'm treating Charles Manson in such a way that I certainly wouldn't wanna be treated, but I think everyone can agree this is the "right" line.

I prefer the moral guideline... "treat others how they should be treated."

Is this a moral guideline? To me it says nothing. Surely how people should be treated is subjective. I don't get it can you explain it to me?

There is no objective morality. It is a dynamic paradigm that changes with time and between cultures and people .


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 20, 2012, 04:03:01 am
the only flaw i think the golden rule has is that we can all universally agree Charles Manson should be punished greatly for what he did, but adhering to the golden rule should dictate that he should get away scot free, because I don't think I should spend a lifetime in jail. I'm treating Charles Manson in such a way that I certainly wouldn't wanna be treated, but I think everyone can agree this is the "right" line.

I prefer the moral guideline... "treat others how they should be treated."



There is no objective morality.

So if the Axis had won WW2 and rewritten history, the Holocaust would have been a good, moral act? I think certain things are intrinsically bad, as defined by survival.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Zoraï on June 20, 2012, 04:04:01 am
the only flaw i think the golden rule has is that we can all universally agree Charles Manson should be punished greatly for what he did, but adhering to the golden rule should dictate that he should get away scot free, because I don't think I should spend a lifetime in jail. I'm treating Charles Manson in such a way that I certainly wouldn't wanna be treated, but I think everyone can agree this is the "right" line.

I prefer the moral guideline... "treat others how they should be treated."

Is this a moral guideline? To me it says nothing. Surely how people should be treated is subjective. I don't get it can you explain it to me?

There is no objective morality. It is a dynamic paradigm that changes with time and between cultures and people .

I'm pretty sure it's just extrapolated from the "Treat others as you would like to be treated" trying to take into account the objections to that logic. However, yeah, how others "should" be treated is subjective and does vary by time and culture, just like every other societal construct. It's hard to make a single statement account for a moral code without any kind of "but but but what about x!"

Morality isn't objective. There is no end-all, be-all code for judging every situation. Common sense, perspective, and empathy give us our personal sense of morality, which collectively defines societal morality. And if we accept that morality isn't stable, it seems a bit ridiculous to base our own off of one that existed 2000 years ago.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Ps358 on June 20, 2012, 12:04:34 pm
On topic> Mitt Romney has my vote.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 20, 2012, 06:51:08 pm
^the fact that you are an eligible voter genuinely scares me.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: herman on June 20, 2012, 06:58:48 pm
who would want, a godless, miserable, self serving , homo, atheist , for a president, not me


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Baw on June 20, 2012, 07:03:30 pm
who would want, a godless, miserable, self serving , homo, atheist , for a president, not me
You're not funny.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: DoubleGunz on June 20, 2012, 07:18:32 pm
who would want, a godless, miserable, self serving , homo, atheist , for a president, not me

You fail at life. I hope this is trolling. lmao


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Paranoid71 on June 20, 2012, 08:05:01 pm
who would want, a godless, miserable, self serving , homo, atheist , for a president, not me

Honestly, if you're an alt, I will leave this site forever. You've disgraced the great traditions of NDS and Haggs.


Title: Re: I Know Who Has My Vote
Post by: Turboweasle on June 20, 2012, 09:11:29 pm
He's not really an alt per se, just another account of Mosher's.  I don't know why he has it.