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Let's Talk... Religion

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Author Topic: Let's Talk... Religion  (Read 4597 times)
guest25
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2012, 06:04:41 pm »

that it is safer to wager that there is a god and find out that there isn't, than to wager that there isn't and find out that there is.  Perfectly logical and perfectly simple.
OMG, I especially agree with this and have been saying this to people!
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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2012, 06:25:18 pm »

Ugh. I'm not doubting reality............

My apologies if it sounded like that was what I meant.  I meant that it's not useful to go around worried about, for instance, whether we're in the real world or the Matrix.  To do anything we have to make assumptions that we can't necessarily prove, such as the that other people exist and we aren't in the Matrix.

People assume what God is and isn't. They assume he's perfect. They assume he "visits the earth," etc. It's actually super annoying and makes every argument concerning the assumptions extremely invalid.

I couldn't agree more.  I take it you don't subscribe to any particular religion, then?

Quote
And just because a scientist isn't aware of any Godly presence doesn't mean other people haven't? Not saying I believe those people have experienced it, but really why would a scientist be able to detect that?

I'm not saying a scientist could.  We're in our intellectual infancy with regards to science; however, in the centuries to come that will change.  It's very possible we'll be able to do things currently thought impossible.  Merely speculation.  But the fact is that if anything exists in the physical world, it will be detectable by physical means, e.g. scientific examination.  That's how physics works.

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I am still on the argument that the mind isn't physical. Perhaps neither is God. You haven't proven that the mind is the same thing as the brain. They are separate.

You haven't offered any argument whatsoever that the brain and mind aren't the same.  We know precisely what the brain's actions are produced by (chemicals and electricity, as I've already said).  Tell me why they aren't the same thing.  Or, perhaps more specific, tell me why the mind isn't the product of an advanced brain.

OK. So imagine your parents are doing each other. Now go into your brain and collect me that image. KTHX.

Are we seriously going to let this devolve into immature quips?  Come on.




My favorite case is referred to as Paschal's Wager, which translated and simplified is roughly that it is safer to wager that there is a god and find out that there isn't, than to wager that there isn't and find out that there is.  Perfectly logical and perfectly simple.  In more than 30 years of debating this no one has ever refuted it.

... What?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager#Criticism

Take a gander at that.  I'll even take the liberty of refuting it briefly here in case you can't/don't click that link.

As you said, Pascal's Wager is the argument that it's more logical to believe in god and be wrong than to not believe and be wrong, as the former will bear no consequence whatsoever while the latter will end in eternal torment or some such unpleasant scenario.

Two problems.

First: Which god do you choose to believe in?  The God of the Jews?  The God of the Christians?  Allah?  Vishnu?  Thor?  Cthulu?  Quetzalcoatl?  The Roman pantheon?  The Greek pantheon?  Any number of African gods?  Native American gods?  How do you choose?

This isn't a fifty-fifty shot at eternity in heaven here.  There are thousands of gods that have been created over the course of human history.  Most of them offer eternity in exchange for worship, and most consequently threaten with torment if refused.  How do you know which to believe in?  How do you know which one's real?

The chance is far greater that you'll choose incorrectly and suffer the same fate as if you hadn't believed in any at all.


Second: If your god is omniscient (that is, he knows everything) and he requires a "true" believer, then what good does "believing" in him do when it's only as, essentially, a safety net?  Surely an all-knowing god would see right through that shallow attempt at belief and send you to our favorite fiery place anyway.  If that's not the case, then he's either not omniscient or doesn't care if you believe in him or not.  So why believe in him if he doesn't care?  Why call him god if he is not all-knowing, thus also making him not all-powerful?


Pascal was a brilliant mathematician and physicist, but he was an unashamed Christian apologist -- and a bad one at that.
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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2012, 06:29:47 pm »

Turbo, your reply to undr, you are still assuming that he believes his God is omniscient and requires a true believer.............Just because he says it's safer to believe in God and be wrong doesn't necessarily mean he believes God requires a true believer.
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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2012, 06:30:49 pm »

Then why would you believe in him anyway?  Clearly this god isn't interested in your belief.  What point would there be in believing in him?
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« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2012, 06:31:02 pm »

And in my defense, I told you to Google it. Such as "The brain and the mind are separate."
I really love Google, but not really interested in looking for that right article when I'm not trying to convince you anything.
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« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2012, 06:32:11 pm »

And in my defense, I told you to Google it. Such as "The brain and the mind are separate."

That means precisely nothing.  I'm not going to do your research for you.  You made a claim, so back it up.  Don't expect me to, please.
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« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2012, 06:32:33 pm »

Then why would you believe in him anyway?  Clearly this god isn't interested in your belief.  What point would there be in believing in him?
Saying **** like "clearly" makes you an arrogant, ignorant ****.
I said I believe there is a God. What is believing in him???
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« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2012, 06:39:23 pm »

Then why would you believe in him anyway?  Clearly this god isn't interested in your belief.  What point would there be in believing in him?
Saying **** like "clearly" makes you an arrogant, ignorant O-ring.

All "clearly" means is that the logical progression from a god not requiring a true believer to him not being interested in people believing in him is clear.  It was not at all intended to sound arrogant.

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I said I believe there is a God. What is believing in him???

Generally it's just a short way of saying you believe he exists.  Do you have another definition?
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« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2012, 06:41:01 pm »

Besides, why would I go out of my way to research this when I don't care to convince you of anything? Basically every one of your replies, you have shown you don't understand what I'm saying. Such as when I said "The most fundamental thing I know is that I exist." You completely twisted my words and said it's stupid to doubt reality.
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« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2012, 06:43:21 pm »

Besides, why would I go out of my way to research this when I don't care to convince you of anything?

It's perfectly fine if you don't want to.  But don't expect me to believe you or do research to support your position if that's the case.

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Basically every one of your replies, you have shown you don't understand what I'm saying. Such as when I said "The most fundamental thing I know is that I exist." You completely twisted my words and said it's stupid to doubt reality.

No, I didn't twist your words.  I even said that it's true that you can only be sure of your own existence.  Then I made what amounted to a joke about how that's not a very helpful mindset if you intend to do anything that involves the world outside of oneself.
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« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2012, 06:43:45 pm »

Then why would you believe in him anyway?  Clearly this god isn't interested in your belief.  What point would there be in believing in him?
So I believe that aliens and ghosts exist?Huh? You're saying I shouldn't, because they don't care about my opinion?? I"m pretty sure aliens and ghosts don't care if I believe in them, and I still do....wtf....
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« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2012, 06:45:47 pm »

So I believe that aliens and ghosts exist?Huh?Huh??? You're saying I shouldn't, because they don't care about my opinion?Huh? I"m pretty sure aliens and ghosts don't care if I believe in them, and I still do....wtf....

That's not what I'm saying.  First of all the two aren't even related as aliens and ghosts typically don't offer eternal life if you believe in them.  But no, I'm not saying you shouldn't believe in them because they don't care about your opinion (I have plenty of other reasons for that with regards to ghosts); I'm simply asking you why you would believe in a god if he doesn't care whether or not you believe in him.  That's all.
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guest25
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« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2012, 06:47:39 pm »

Do you not understand the concept of believing in something?Huh? I believe in one answer vs another answer...And one of those answers is right. So in any case, regardless of whether God cares if I believe in him or not, he surely either exists or doesn't?Huh??? So people can believe he exists or doesn't??? Get it??
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« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2012, 06:49:55 pm »


That's not what I'm saying.  First of all the two aren't even related as aliens and ghosts typically don't offer eternal life if you believe in them.  But no, I'm not saying you shouldn't believe in them because they don't care about your opinion (I have plenty of other reasons for that with regards to ghosts); I'm simply asking you why you would believe in a god if he doesn't care whether or not you believe in him.  That's all.

Ok but now you're assuming that I believe God only grants eternal life to people who believe in him? You just said earlier that you agreed with me that it's annoying when people assume what God is and isn't, etc. And you have been making so many assumptions.
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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2012, 06:50:58 pm »

I already told you that I believe God exists--just like believing aliens and ghosts exist, and you already confirmed that I can believe in aliens and ghost regardless of them caring about my belief, so that should mean I can believe in God regardless of if he cares I believe in him or not. Not your twisted definition that because I believe God exists, I will be granted eternal life.
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