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The Last of Us Discussion topic (SPOILERS OMG SPOILER SPOILERS ENDING SPOILERS)

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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2013, 11:27:18 am »

I assumed these viewpoints drew from specific instances in the game to come to that conclusion.  I was expecting some level of analysis of the themes and character development to support the idea that that's how the ending should be interpreted.

Oh well.
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2013, 11:45:20 am »

The fact that he thinks of her as a replacement for his daughter isn't obvious? The fact that in his situation, the knee-jerk reaction would be to save his 'daughter' so he doesn't lose his 'daughter' twice isn't obvious?  Huh?

I'm not sure what you're looking for.
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2013, 12:30:02 pm »

The fact that he thinks of her as a replacement for his daughter isn't obvious?

Actually I'd say the complete opposite is the case, considering Joel explicitly states, "You sure as hell ain't my daughter," in the farmhouse after Ellie runs off with the horse.  And even after Joel has his change of heart, there's one moment where Ellie says she's sorry about what happened to his daughter and Joel gives a reserved thanks for the sentiment.

I'm still not convinced that he thinks of her as a replacement by the end of the game.

Quote
The fact that in his situation, the knee-jerk reaction would be to save his 'daughter' so he doesn't lose his 'daughter' twice isn't obvious?

The complete and sudden reversal of his character is obvious, sure, but it's not at all developed throughout the game (or if it is, it's certainly not done in an obvious way).  It, as I said in my earlier post, came across as extremely illogical on Joel's part and poorly explained on the writers' parts.

Quote
I'm not sure what you're looking for.

Guess you didn't see this, then:

I assumed these viewpoints drew from specific instances in the game to come to that conclusion.  I was expecting some level of analysis of the themes and character development to support the idea that that's how the ending should be interpreted.

Oh well.


I'm not sure how you could miss that.
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2013, 12:37:48 pm »

The game shouldn't need to be analysed to death to understand it. None of it stands out as "wtf this doesn't make sense".

Here's a comment from someone I read:

"One observation, the first and last characters you play as are fourteen year old girls (Sarah and Ellie), and the first and last times you play as Joel are when you are carrying one of them (carrying Sarah through the street or Ellie through the hospital).

Also, the one thing that drives home that Joel is taking Ellie to be like his daughter is when he calls her "baby girl" when he picks her up off the table at the end. He calls Sarah the same thing when he lays her on the bed at the beginning.

Lastly, despite what the people in the video are saying, I don't think Joel is the bad guy. It seemed to me that the world of The Last Of Us was created to essentially be the real world, plus 20 years after a pandemic. And if that is true, then the creators know that in the real world, there are no true villains. The world is not black and white, and no one believes that they are the "bad guy". So in the game, there are no bad people, just people doing what we would consider to be bad things. And Joel makes the decision I think literally everyone would have made if they had been through what he had been through. Joel is not the bad guy, or the good guy. He is just a guy. Just like the rest of us"

I highly recommend watching this, too. It's got a few guys that have different interpretations of the game. It's interesting to hear about how certain people thought differently about what happened. They also point out a few things I didn't even notice in the game. Very fun to listen to.

http://ca.ign.com/videos/2013/06/21/the-last-of-us-spoilercast
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2013, 12:56:24 pm »

The game shouldn't need to be analysed to death to understand it.

Wait, who's saying they don't understand it?

Quote
None of it stands out as "wtf this doesn't make sense".

Pretty sure I haven't said this.  Pretty sure I'm looking for justification for the direction the ending went in (hence my desire to "analyse it to death", as you so eloquently put it).

Quote
"One observation, the first and last characters you play as are fourteen year old girls (Sarah and Ellie), and the first and last times you play as Joel are when you are carrying one of them (carrying Sarah through the street or Ellie through the hospital).

Also, the one thing that drives home that Joel is taking Ellie to be like his daughter is when he calls her "baby girl" when he picks her up off the table at the end. He calls Sarah the same thing when he lays her on the bed at the beginning.

Lastly, despite what the people in the video are saying, I don't think Joel is the bad guy. It seemed to me that the world of The Last Of Us was created to essentially be the real world, plus 20 years after a pandemic. And if that is true, then the creators know that in the real world, there are no true villains. The world is not black and white, and no one believes that they are the "bad guy". So in the game, there are no bad people, just people doing what we would consider to be bad things. And Joel makes the decision I think literally everyone would have made if they had been through what he had been through. Joel is not the bad guy, or the good guy. He is just a guy. Just like the rest of us"


And this is what I was looking for, which you could have easily posted without going through the trouble of being condescending and generally rude.  So thanks, I guess.

I too noticed Joel calling Ellie "baby girl" as he was leaving the hospital, which lends credit to the argument that Joel considers Ellie as a replacement for Sarah.  I'm not sure what the first observation about playing as Sarah and Ellie really has to do with anything.

What I'm not convinced on is that Joel has a progressive change in how he views Ellie, going from her simply being part of the job of smuggling to someone he genuinely cares about.  The first time we see Joel really being warm towards Ellie is after the fight between Ellie and Mr. Religious Crazypants, when they're already in Salt Lake City, which is pretty much the end of the game.  It feels rushed and undeveloped.

And on a slightly different note, Ellie's sense of reluctance in getting to the hospital as well as her statement of "There's no halfway with this" seems to indicate that she had some idea of what was going to happen to her in the hospital.  This only makes me question further the logic behind the Fireflies' callous actions concerning Joel.  Are the Fireflies intended to be shady?  What do we know about them apart from their desire to find a cure and reestablish some system of government?

Quote
I highly recommend watching this, too. It's got a few guys that have different interpretations of the game. It's interesting to hear about how certain people thought differently about what happened. They also point out a few things I didn't even notice in the game. Very fun to listen to.

http://ca.ign.com/videos/2013/06/21/the-last-of-us-spoilercast

I'll take a listen to it.  Thanks.
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2013, 01:00:33 pm »

I wasn't trying to be rude, I just didn't understand what you were looking for or didn't catch. As in, I experienced the game a certain way and it's hard to see how anyone could experience it differently. You know?  Undecided
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2013, 01:02:03 pm »

Again, I'd say I was pretty specific about it:

I assumed these viewpoints drew from specific instances in the game to come to that conclusion.  I was expecting some level of analysis of the themes and character development to support the idea that that's how the ending should be interpreted.
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2013, 01:27:39 pm »

Yeah I know what you said, I just couldn't think of specific things. I just lumped everything I experienced together in to one big happy memory. Well, quite a depressing memory, actually.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2013, 01:30:24 pm »

So the ending depressed you?
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2013, 01:50:13 pm »

No, I mean the game as a whole. It isn't necessarily a "fun" game. It's not meant to be. It's meant to take you on an emotional rollercoaster and make you feel bad about everything around you. The notes left by people, the destroyed buildings, the people trapped in infected bodies, and of course the amount of people that suddenly die. You just move on immediately and aren't given time to think about what just happened. The game burdens you with horrible feelings constantly. It's definitely a game best experienced alone, in a dark room, with a surround sound headset. Oh boy, the sound in this game is amazing. You can hear everything so well in every direction. Hearing clickers behind you is so creepy.
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2013, 07:38:10 pm »

That was actually one of my problems by the ending.  Throughout the game, like you mentioned, I felt sad/depressed about all the notes, the death, etc.  But at the end of the game, I didn't feel anything at all, which really disappointed me.  Even if I had felt bad by the end I would have been pleased, but that didn't happen.  I feel like the game dragged on far too long.
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2013, 07:45:44 pm »

I'm not sure what the first observation about playing as Sarah and Ellie really has to do with anything.


I think the observation is important too but there is a specific part that I haven't seen either of you guys bring up that might tie it all together and, to me, it answers this too:

Quote
What I'm not convinced on is that Joel has a progressive change in how he views Ellie, going from her simply being part of the job of smuggling to someone he genuinely cares about.

Bascially, the way I see it, the gradual change from "just a job" to surrogate daughter came at a scene right before Tess, Ellie and Joel got to the Capitol building. They are on a rooftop, I think, and they're all jumping down. Ellie had said something and right after that, Joel stared at his watch. It was a small thing but to me it said that Joel was thinking about his daughter and had started to draw similarities between his real daughter and Ellie. Those similarities are obvious to us as viewrs but it's not outright mentioned what Joel was thinking. Right after, that Tess looks at Joel and although it's not specified, I think she knew what Joel was thinking because she told him to focus on the job.

From then on out it was not really addressed in any clear or specific way that Joel started to care about Ellie because I think that we as viewers were supposed make that assumption given that probably anyone in Joel's position would probably form an uneasy (uncomfortable) attachment to someone that bears so many similarites to someone important that we have lost and never really gotten over. To me it was something that we were supposed to guess was going on in the background even though it wasn't addressed outright until the "baby girl" scene.


But this also lets me draw a few conclusions about Joel's personality and his motives for making the decisions he did at the end. Firstly, Joel, like most people in a post apocalyptic world, is filled with grief and pain that he doesn't want to confront. We know this because of the times when Ellie and his brother brought up the death of his kid. He couldn't even take an old photograph of his daughter because he couldn't confront it. Seeing this, it also lets me tie it into the fact that all through the game his progressive attachment to Ellie is hidden, because he's uneasy with it. Basically it establishes Joel as a person who has removed himself from emotion so that he doesn't have to deal with it.

That first point about his personality leads to a second conclusion I drew. Since he's so separated from the emotions he would normally feel, this has led him to take on a "do what needs to be done" or "it's either you or me" type of personality. It's the apocalypse they're in. It's established that Joel isn't associated with the Fireflies since he's not into any revolutionary activities and he's not pro-government either. He smuggles things on the underground to make a living, because that's what he has to do to survive. While doing that, he always confronts violent situations with extreme openness. He isn't fazed by the concept of murder or revenge and it shows because he  doesn't hesistate in killing anyone at all in the most brutal of fashions. This is why he had absolutely no problem in killing the lady at the end despite her plea of being spared.

Was it selfish to take Ellie despite her being humanitys last hope and killing the scientists, absolutely. But to me the game isn't trying to justify it as much as it's trying to put you in Joel's shoes and show you what a person who has recently accepted his emotional attachment to someone coupled with a "you or me" personality would do in that position. I think the game and the writing did a great job of that and I absolutely enjoyed it. I legitimately felt what Joel was likely feeling at the moment he took her away and the moment he lied to her. It felt wrong, very wrong, but I think that's what they wanted you to feel and more importantly, understand.
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2013, 09:05:58 pm »

yes
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« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2013, 11:41:53 am »

Bascially, the way I see it, the gradual change from "just a job" to surrogate daughter came at a scene right before Tess, Ellie and Joel got to the Capitol building. They are on a rooftop, I think, and they're all jumping down. Ellie had said something and right after that, Joel stared at his watch. It was a small thing but to me it said that Joel was thinking about his daughter and had started to draw similarities between his real daughter and Ellie. Those similarities are obvious to us as viewrs but it's not outright mentioned what Joel was thinking. Right after, that Tess looks at Joel and although it's not specified, I think she knew what Joel was thinking because she told him to focus on the job.

I don't really remember him looking at his watch so I can't comment on that scene specifically.

And of course Joel sees the similarities between Sarah and Ellie, but that doesn't necessarily mean he considers her as a replacement for Sarah.  And he's kind of an **** to Ellie long after what happens in the capitol building.  I'm not sure if that one scene can be used as a basis to claim that Joel was growing warm towards Ellie through the entire game.

Quote
From then on out it was not really addressed in any clear or specific way that Joel started to care about Ellie because I think that we as viewers were supposed make that assumption given that probably anyone in Joel's position would probably form an uneasy (uncomfortable) attachment to someone that bears so many similarites to someone important that we have lost and never really gotten over. To me it was something that we were supposed to guess was going on in the background even though it wasn't addressed outright until the "baby girl" scene.

See, I think that's irrational of him and doesn't make sense based upon his history.

He's a smuggler.  He's extremely pragmatic (how many times, for example, does he say, "We have no other choice/option"?).  He and Tess have been staying alive that way for nearly two decades.  Tess explicitly states that she and Joel are not good people in the capitol building, and Joel does not protest.

Furthermore, when Tess dies Joel doesn't really mourn at all, and they've been together for quite some time.  Sure, their relationship isn't the same as the one between Joel and Sarah was, but the point still stands considering they had been partners for a very long time.

He's just not an emotional guy, and he pretty consistently does not act warm towards Ellie for the overwhelming majority of the game.  I'm pretty sure the only reason he continued trying to get Ellie to the Fireflies was for Tess, since she thought that would be a form of redemption for them.


Quote
Was it selfish to take Ellie despite her being humanitys last hope and killing the scientists, absolutely. But to me the game isn't trying to justify it as much as it's trying to put you in Joel's shoes and show you what a person who has recently accepted his emotional attachment to someone coupled with a "you or me" personality would do in that position.

I get that.  What I don't get is this:

Quote
I think the game and the writing did a great job of that and I absolutely enjoyed it.

They didn't show you how he progressively came to care about Ellie.  It was just that we were suddenly in Salt Lake City and now he's treating her like his daughter.  What all happened between the crazy guy and getting to Salt Lake City?  What happened during that time that changed his perspective that they hadn't already experienced at some earlier point in their journey?

They just told us that Joel had now changed, which isn't good story telling.  We didn't get to see the development of Joel's character at all, really, between the two extremes of Ellie being the job and Ellie being his "daughter".  And to me, this is what made the ending utterly void of emotion.  I didn't even feel angry at Joel.  I felt cheated that the development of Joel's humanity and emotions were left to be assumed.

Quote
I legitimately felt what Joel was likely feeling at the moment he took her away and the moment he lied to her. It felt wrong, very wrong, but I think that's what they wanted you to feel and more importantly, understand.

And to me they failed to do that.  To me, Joel abandoned two decades' worth of precedent and his survival-at-all-costs mindset at a moment's notice, which felt jarring and out of place.  For me, at the end, too much is left to be assumed.

Consider this: If Joel had really cared about Ellie, don't you think he would have insisted they discuss what was going to go down when they reached the Fireflies?  Shouldn't that be something that would be important to Joel if he cared about Ellie's well-being on a level other than her being the package to deliver?  Instead, when Ellie is obviously distracted on the way to the hospital, Joel just says, "We can just turn around," or something equally as inane.  It doesn't allow us to hear why Ellie might be distracted or reserved, or hesitant about meeting up with the Fireflies when previously she had been pretty damn excited about it.  And for all we know, Ellie could have just been jaded about the possibility of finding the Fireflies in the hospital after previous failed attempts.  But that's the point: We don't know.  We're left to assume because of the lack of story telling done towards the end of the game pertaining to the development of their characters.

And that's the biggest issue I have with the game.  If you want me to feel something for the characters at the end, don't throw in huge character reversals without necessary character development to justify those reversals.
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« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2013, 12:46:52 pm »

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