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« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2016, 03:03:26 pm » |
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John Lott's methodology is flawless. The problem is that some people disagree with the way the statistics are analysed. And that works both ways. The studies you cited also use the same methodology as Lott, they just place relevance and importance on other factors than Lott does to get their own conclusion.
Like I suggested, get training yourself. Learn the real world applications for yourself before trying to judge whose study to trust and which statistics are actually telling. The problem is that people like you (and those who conducted the studies you cited) have no real world experience on these issues. They sit in an office separated from reality and come up with what they think actually matters on the street. And in the end their conclusions are worthless.
As someone with training and a very good understanding of the issues involved in self defense law and incidents, I see Lott's studies as far more applicable to reality and find them to be spot on to how things actually work. Call it confirmation bias if you want as long as you don't lie to yourself in thinking you have no confirmation bias in your own point of view.
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Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
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OhioLawyer
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Romans 5:8
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« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2016, 03:06:10 pm » |
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I honestly can't believe you're using John Lott as a reference for why guns are good. He's a know joke, and his "facts" are made up. It's a miracle the GOP even uses him, but it makes sense considering it's impossible to find anyone credible who would actually advocate for guns.
His facts come directly from FBI statistics. The only joke is people who attack him not for the truth of his research, but because his conclusions go against their beliefs. Which is exactly what you are doing. His methodology has stood up to peer review since the 90s.
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dudedudedude for Moderator
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« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2016, 03:14:48 pm » |
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Lott made up a second persona so that he could have someone agree with him. He was so insecure in his own writings that he had to make up a fictional person to agree with him. He's been ripped to shreds by numerous publications, made up facts, used facts wrong, been unable to produce documents on his facts, and is a laughing stock.
Come on Ohio, you're better than following this guy.
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OhioLawyer
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Romans 5:8
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« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2016, 03:15:12 pm » |
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The fact of the matter is that it cannot be denied that this issue is very political in nature. On both sides. It is so far intertwined with politics that I'm confident we can never get truly accurate data from either side.
As such, I believe in freedom. I believe in individual rights. I stand against the taking of individual rights. And the matter of how effective firearms for self-defense are is a question for the individual who possesses that right to defend THEMSELVES. It should never be taken away based on statistics that can easily be manipulated.
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dudedudedude for Moderator
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« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2016, 03:21:32 pm » |
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The fact of the matter is, the NRA is funding people like Lott to make male cattle dung claims and drive propaganda for the use of guns, when there is ridiculous amounts of evidence to the contrary that guns shouldn't be for personal use.
There is no bullshit in the fact that you are more likely to die while carrying a gun than not.
There is no bullshit in the fact that armed civilians have stopped exactly zero mass shootings in the last 33 years.
There is no bullshit in the fact that more people die from accidental gun deaths every year than saving yourself from a criminal.
But you can argue whatever you want, it's people like you that set the world back, because your freedom to make silly decisions is going to cost millions of live over the course of time, and I want you to hold that on your conscience.
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OhioLawyer
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« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2016, 03:22:43 pm » |
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Lott made up a second persona so that he could have someone agree with him. He was so insecure in his own writings that he had to make up a fictional person to agree with him. He's been ripped to shreds by numerous publications, made up facts, used facts wrong, been unable to produce documents on his facts, and is a laughing stock.
Come on Ohio, you're better than following this guy.
I don't "follow" anyone. I have reviewed his studies as well as all those you have presented and many others on the topic. And I have found his data and conclusions persuasive. While it's true he used a fake persona on an online forum to anonymously argue against those who were falsely attempting to discredit his study, none of that means the underlying study is somehow invalid. Even you can understand that logic. People regularly attack him personally and attempt to conduct their own studies to disprove his conclusions, but don't be naive enough to think that isn't any more than political attacks because they know they can't attack the studies themselves.
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OhioLawyer
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« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2016, 03:25:28 pm » |
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The fact of the matter is, the NRA is funding people like Lott to make male cattle dung claims and drive propaganda for the use of guns, when there is ridiculous amounts of evidence to the contrary that guns shouldn't be for personal use.
Actually that's a lie. The NRA doesn't fund academic research. And if you read Lott's defamation case, the courts agreed with that fact. But what IS fact, is that the Obama administration is attempting to use the Center for Disease Control (ridiculously claiming that gun violence is a disease) to fund his own biased research on the issues. And if you don't think that is more biased than Lott receiving a fellowship by the Olin family, then you are blind to your own biases. The FACT is that this is political on both sides.
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dudedudedude for Moderator
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« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2016, 03:34:47 pm » |
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Lott says something; it's not biased because guns are good
Someone disproves Lott; it's biased because guns are good
Got it.
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OhioLawyer
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2016, 03:38:38 pm » |
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Actually that's been your position. Mine has been that both sides are biased. We need to recognize that fact and draw our own conclusions. Is reading that hard for you?
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« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2016, 06:10:43 pm » |
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The fact of the matter is, the NRA is funding people like Lott to make male cattle dung claims and drive propaganda for the use of guns, when there is ridiculous amounts of evidence to the contrary that guns shouldn't be for personal use.
There is no bullshit in the fact that you are more likely to die while carrying a gun than not.
There is no bullshit in the fact that armed civilians have stopped exactly zero mass shootings in the last 33 years.
There is no bullshit in the fact that more people die from accidental gun deaths every year than saving yourself from a criminal.
But you can argue whatever you want, it's people like you that set the world back, because your freedom to make silly decisions is going to cost millions of live over the course of time, and I want you to hold that on your conscience.
Where did you get that?
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OhioLawyer
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Romans 5:8
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« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2016, 07:19:34 am » |
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There's only one conclusion on the side of facts. That's the point of them.
And the FACT is that violent crime rates have dropped in EVERY state once concealed carry is allowed and decreases inversely proportionally as the number of permits issued goes up. THOSE are the facts. What you call "facts" are misapplied statistics attempted to prove a politically motivated point. But your bias is so clear you can't even see that. But regardless of any of that, what really is a FACT is that one's personal protection is an individual right. That's the whole point of the bill of rights: that society, nor studies, nor political action, nor any other preference by the group can make that decision for the individual. It doesn't matter if 99% of the population thinks all guns should be outlawed. They can't dictate to that 1% how they can and can't defend themselves. That is a fundamental right we enjoy in this country. And I wouldn't trade that freedom for anything in the world. I wouldn't expect a Canadian to understand fundamental freedom though. All of your freedom is given to you by the government, which means it can be taken away. My freedom comes from outside the government, and all power in my government was given to it by the people. All other freedoms were reserved by the people. It's sad how many in this world today, even Americans, don't understand this distinction and are so willing to give up their rights and freedoms to a government, not realizing that government can take them at any time. They live in fantasy land thinking that because all is well and it's working right now that it always will be. But one day it will come crashing down, their freedoms will be gone and they won't have a way to get them back. That's why the 2nd amendment exists. It allows for an armed populace to help preserve all the other freedoms of the bill or rights because it is "necessary to the security of a free state."
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OhioLawyer
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Romans 5:8
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« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2016, 07:20:20 am » |
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In the wrong spot. It's 10 since 1997.
Actually, it's completely incorrect altogether.
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dudedudedude for Moderator
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« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2016, 01:30:00 pm » |
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You aren't free Ohio. Guns don't make you free. You are dependant on the government for everything.
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