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Clan CK

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« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2009, 10:52:04 pm »

wow I saw this clan named LWA or some of them were LW@|KING and fat and such anyone know this clan i wanna talk to them Tongue
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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2009, 02:02:20 am »

All that matters is if you learn from the mistakes. Good for the other guy. It's impossible for anyone but Jesus to be perfect.
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« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2009, 02:04:24 am »

Jesus was both Human and Divine, so he probably did make mistakes, just like all humans do.
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« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2009, 08:42:59 am »

I don't agree with that. Mistakes are absolutely the best learning experience. You have to make the mistakes yourself in order to gain the most experience. So, someone who makes very few mistakes has fewer opportunities to learn and more than likely won't be as successful.


Lol.  Imagine Donald Trump if he had never made a bad choice.  He'd be a god.

Your argument in based on learning from mistakes; my argument is based on knowing better than doing something a certain way and not needing to learn f
But, assuming someone doesn't sit in a padded room all day and actually makes decisions, wouldn't you say that the person in question was wise if he never needed to learn from mistakes because he made the right choices?  Mistakes are great to learn from, but sometimes it just serves as a wake-up slap to the people who go through life sleeping; if you're already awake, what good would a wake-up slap do?

I don't disagree that if you do everything perfectly then obviously you should have a perfect life. However, there's a big difference between doing everything perfectly and 'making the right choices'. Nobody can do everything perfectly so I won't talk about that point any longer. In terms of 'making the right choices', I again agree that you can go through life (and have a good life) by always making what appears to be the right choice. But that doesn't make you the most successful (as 3d stated).

Of course we could always get into the discussion on 'what does successful mean?'. Typically it means wealth, power, status, etc. I assume that is 3d's definition of success.

If that's the case then ask Donald Trump how many mistakes he's made and if he's learned from each mistake and become more successful because of it. How many times has he been on the brink of bankruptcy.

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"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

– Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

Here are a couple of examples of failures that I Google'd:

Two other failures you may have heard of are Levi Strauss and Christopher Columbus. Strauss headed for the gold mines of California in hopes of gold and glory. But he found none. Instead, this failure gave him new knowledge of a gap in the marketplace. He began selling pants out of canvas for the miners that were succeeding. Today, we've all heard of Levi Strauss jeans. Columbus failed miserably on his goal to find a route to India . However, in failing he ran into a new opportunity.. that of the new world. By taking action and learning from your mistakes and failures, you'll gain new knowledge and become aware of many new opportunities. When you come to the edge of what you know, it's time to make some mistakes.

http://www.woopidoo.com/articles/allis/mistakes-article.htm

Lol.  Imagine Donald Trump if he had never made a bad choice.  He'd be a god.  How is he a better person from making mistakes when he had the opportunity to never make a single mistake in his life?  Making the right choices does not equal perfection, but it is possible, as, like Solisero said, failure and success are relative, therefore perfection is relative.  The thought that making the wrong decision benefits you in the long run in comparison to making the right decision making a lesser benefit in the long run is absurd.

Your argument in based on learning from mistakes; my argument is based on knowing better than doing something a certain way and not needing to learn from a mistake that never happened.  Let's look at this example:

You work with the stock market.  Your boss wants you to make some investments for this large company.  You accept, and find that you have two options to consider: a high-risk, high-reward investment, or something comparable to a government bond.  Being the risk-taker you are, you go with the risky investment.  However, the price drops drastically on the product you invested in, and the company who you invested for goes bankrupt as a result.  How do you think your boss feels about that?  How do you think the company and all the people now out of a job feel?  Sure, from now on you may be more cautious, but that certainly doesn't help you, your boss, or the aforementioned recently-unemployed, does it?

Let's rewind a bit-- this time, you take the safe bet.  The next day, you watch the bottom fall out of the risky investment.  You say to yourself, "Whew, glad I played it safe this time."  Your boss, pleased with your insight, gives you a promotion.  The company you invested for continues to prosper and gain interest off the government bond.  Everyone's happy.

You seem to be thinking that you can only learn from mistakes, when, in reality, you can learn (or, rather, reinforce your decision-making tendencies) by watching yourself make the right choices and reminding yourself to think things through.  You benefit yourself in that moment and in the future, whereas making the wrong choice, though potentially useful in the future, does not benefit you in that moment, and has the potential to ruin any chance of prosperity down the road.

Therefore, making good decisions is better than making bad decisions.  I don't see how anyone could believe any differently.

I think something else that most of you are forgetting is that this is not a real-world, position-contingent argument; the subject is not, "If you're in this position, making mistakes doesn't matter."  Rather, it is, "Does making a mistake benefit me greater now and in the long run when compared to not making a mistake now and learning from the fruits of my wisdom?"

I firmly believe someone like DT has learned from mistakes and is farther ahead then he would have been by not making those mistakes.

The thing you are missing Turbo is that this 'wisdom' you speak of doesn't exist without mistakes. How does the safe stock broker know not to take that risk? He has seen others make that same mistake, so no matter how you look at it, mistakes are at the heart of everyone doing better and that's why mistakes are so very important. Thank you for backing up my argument.

And in terms of success, stock brokerages want those risky investors because they have the potential to be stars. When they hit it right they make a fortune. They learn from the mistakes they've made so they have an even better shot at hitting it big the next time. Of course they want the safe guys too, but they won't be the stars and therefore, not as successful. The reason they will do well at playing it safe is because of the mistakes that others have made.

The point that you have not encountered yet is that you can read and watch all you want, but you learn the best when you are the person who makes the mistake. For example, the safe investor will sit there and be tempted to make it big by being riskier because that's where the success lies. He'll think he's smarter because he's played it safe all these years and he will venture out and fail. Why? Because you can't learn everything from other people's mistakes. You learn the most from your own and that investor will then be stronger because of the mistake.

Look at the Levi Strauss story, 'wisdom' would have told him to stay home because you had to be lucky to find gold and a lot of people failed miserably at it. If he had stayed home, we would have never had Levi Strauss jeans. Of course we might say that is a blessing  Wink but that doesn't change the fact that 'wisdom' would have prevented his success.
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« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2009, 09:34:01 am »

wow my question got denied :(
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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2009, 09:39:09 am »

I firmly believe someone like DT has learned from mistakes and is farther ahead then he would have been by not making those mistakes.

Lol?  So you're saying that, if Donald Trump had never made a bad decision (implying that he had made the right decision instead of not making a decision, of course), he would be less well-off than he currently is?  That's like saying that Michael Vick is better off from participating in dog fights than he would have been if he had stayed out of that and continued to get a huge paycheck instead of going to jail.  That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.

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The thing you are missing Turbo is that this 'wisdom' you speak of doesn't exist without mistakes.

Um, no.  You're utterly wrong here.  Wisdom is not attained only through making mistakes.  You seem to think that humans are incapable of using foresight to anticipate the possible ramifications of an action.  Wisdom doesn't come from just making a mistake and seeing how to avoid that again; it's easily attainable through deductive reasoning.

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How does the safe stock broker know not to take that risk?

Because he uses intuition.  Knowing the definition of "risk" in conjunction with the word "high" is something that should probably be avoided.

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He has seen others make that same mistake, so no matter how you look at it, mistakes are at the heart of everyone doing better and that's why mistakes are so very important.

Last I checked, this argument was not, "Can you learn from mistakes that you make or others make?"; it was "Do bad choices help you, the individual, benefit greater now and in the long run in comparison to making the right choice?"  Of course you can learn from watching others make mistakes.  Unfortunately for you, that is entirely irrelevant to this argument.

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And in terms of success, stock brokerages want those risky investors because they have the potential to be stars.

Have you never argued a hypothetical circumstance?  You either never have or blatantly ignored that portion of my analogy.

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When they hit it right they make a fortune.

Which benefits them in that moment and in the future, right?

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They learn from the mistakes they've made so they have an even better shot at hitting it big the next time.

Of course they do.  They gained wisdom from making mistakes.  Are you trying to say that they couldn't gain wisdom from making the right decision?  From using intuition instead of going with the risky choice just because they had a chance of guessing right?  The notion that guessing wrong is superior to guessing right in terms of short-term and long-term beneficial returns is completely and utterly wrong.

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Of course they want the safe guys too, but they won't be the stars and therefore, not as successful. The reason they will do well at playing it safe is because of the mistakes that others have made.

Or, because they're not mindless automatons and have the ability of cognitive thought, they thought about the outcomes of the choices and decided to go with the sure bet instead of trying to be a star and risking ruin for themselves and countless others.  Also, again, this was a hypothetical argument.  Stock brokers are going to go with the risky investments-- we all know that-- but that's not the point.  Another thing: This argument isn't about dumb luck, which is basically what becoming a stock broker star is based on.  You're now insinuating that you can only make the right choice after making wrong choices.  Answer me this: If someone makes the wrong choices consistently enough to glean as much wisdom as you're implying that they do from their mistakes, then how are we to know that they will make the right decision later on down the road?  Also, if your risky stock broker star had made the wrong investment and lost a ton of money, how is that going to benefit him in that moment in any way?  It may help him in the future, but how does it help him in that split second?  If he makes the right choice, he doesn't need to learn from a mistake that he won't make, because he saw how to handle that situation and learned how to handle situations like that in the future.  Therefore, he benefits himself in the short run and long run.

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The point that you have not encountered yet is that you can read and watch all you want, but you learn the best when you are the person who makes the mistake.

Says who?  A toddler who thinks he knows everything and is certain that he can do no wrong might learn from making a mistake himself, but any rational, logical, intelligent person who can think for themselves would know to think before he acts to weight the possible outcomes of every decision, therefore making the right choice and not needing to learn from his mistake because he already learned why he shouldn't have made the decision that would have ultimately led to that mistake.

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 For example, the safe investor will sit there and be tempted to make it big by being riskier because that's where the success lies.

At this point, I'm doubting that you know what a hypothetical statement is.

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He'll think he's smarter because he's played it safe all these years and he will venture out and fail.

lolwut?

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Why?

Precisely what I want to know.

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Because you can't learn everything from other people's mistakes. You learn the most from your own and that investor will then be stronger because of the mistake.

Again, you're assuming that people can't think independently.  And the thought that you learn more from your own mistakes than watching everyone else make mistakes is laughable.  You're one person in a world of billions.  Unless you're suggesting that you make more mistakes and are therefore inherently wiser because of that than the collective wisdom gained from mistakes of the billions, than you have an ego to rival any other ego.

I also lol'd at the thought that an investor losing money will make it stronger in the short run.  In the long run, sure, it's possible, but certainly not in the short run.

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Look at the Levi Strauss story, 'wisdom' would have told him to stay home because you had to be lucky to find gold and a lot of people failed miserably at it. If he had stayed home, we would have never had Levi Strauss jeans. Of course we might say that is a blessing  Wink but that doesn't change the fact that 'wisdom' would have prevented his success.

Now you're thinking that, if he had stayed at home, he wouldn't have done anything.  For all we know, he could have stayed at home, gone to college, become a doctor, happened upon some fungi, and discovered penicillin decades before its discovery in our own history, saving the lives of thousands of Union and Confederate soldiers that would have died otherwise.  You're arguing that he would have stayed home and done nothing, but how are you to know?
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« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2009, 09:50:57 am »

many woooorrrrddddssss^^^^^ Shocked
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« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2009, 09:51:29 am »

I'm not even going to bother reading that. I read the first line and realized its just pointless to have a rational discussion with you Turbo. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt again, but I guess I should have learned from my first mistake. However, I'm a better person now because I made that mistake  Afro

You continue to show that you have a lot to learn in life. Good luck with that 'perfect life' from that 'absolute wisdom' that you have. The wisdom that is based entirely on your own intelligence and nobody's mistakes. I trust you will be very successful.

I would say that it would be fun to have this converstaion in 20 or 30 years, but I highly doubt you would have the humility to address it again.
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« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2009, 09:55:13 am »

I'm not even going to bother reading that. I read the first line and realized its just pointless to have a rational discussion with you Turbo. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt again, but I guess I should have learned from my first mistake. However, I'm a better person now because I made that mistake  Afro

You continue to show that you have a lot to learn in life. Good luck with that 'perfect life' from that 'absolute wisdom' that you have. The wisdom that is based entirely on your own intelligence and nobody's mistakes. I trust you will be very successful.

I would say that it would be fun to have this converstaion in 20 or 30 years, but I highly doubt you would have the humility to address it again.

tl;dr:  I'm out of material, so I'm going to insult you and try to act like I'm right while everyone knows I just took the wrong stance and missed the mark.
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« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2009, 09:59:20 am »

The expected come back. Do you really want me to disect it again Turbo? This will go on forever, because you are 17 and have a lot to experience in life before you'll understand. You will continue to make absurd arguments. You didn't even understand the arguments I made.

I'll just give you an example:

"I also lol'd at the thought that an investor losing money will make it stronger in the short run."

Where did I say that an investor losing money will make it stronger in the short run? I didn't say that, it was implied that it would help in the long run. Something that went completely over your head. So, like I said, when you make arguments such as that, there is obviously no point in discussing it with you as your context isn't even correct.
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« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2009, 10:07:43 am »

"Because you can't learn everything from other people's mistakes. You learn the most from your own and that investor will then be stronger because of the mistake."

That is exactly what you said.  I know you implied that it would be stronger in the long run.  But, because you did not specify that it would only be stronger in the long run, you also implied (if unintentionally) that it would benefit the investor in the short run, which is absurd.

I'm also loving how you're readily claiming that I'm too immature to argue with when you're the one insulting me to try to prove your point.  You're obviously not mature enough to concede defeat in an adult manner, so you try to degrade your opponent to make yourself look better.  The best way to tell who wins and who loses a debate is too see who stopped debating to insult their opponent.  That is only proven time and again, especially the more you allow yourself to insult my maturity.
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« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2009, 02:46:39 pm »

Why are you guys still arguing about this? My post was the win in this. Tongue
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« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2009, 03:36:27 pm »

"Because you can't learn everything from other people's mistakes. You learn the most from your own and that investor will then be stronger because of the mistake."

That is exactly what you said.  I know you implied that it would be stronger in the long run.  But, because you did not specify that it would only be stronger in the long run, you also implied (if unintentionally) that it would benefit the investor in the short run, which is absurd.

I'm also loving how you're readily claiming that I'm too immature to argue with when you're the one insulting me to try to prove your point.  You're obviously not mature enough to concede defeat in an adult manner, so you try to degrade your opponent to make yourself look better.  The best way to tell who wins and who loses a debate is too see who stopped debating to insult their opponent.  That is only proven time and again, especially the more you allow yourself to insult my maturity.

Wrong again Turbo. Didn't think I'd have to spell everything out for you, so it is not implied in the short run.

I didn't insult you when I first responded and the only insult I slung at you was that you have a lot to learn, which you continue to prove every time you post on this site.

Some of your responses:

"Lol?", "That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard", "Have you never argued a hypothetical circumstance?", "At this point, I'm doubting that you know what a hypothetical statement is.
", "lolwut?", "And the thought that you learn more from your own mistakes than watching everyone else make mistakes is laughable."

This is just a sample, but you see, every time you respond you try to insult my intelligence rather than just arguing the point. This is one area that you need to work on  Afro That's some free advice for you.

And let's go back to what the original discussion was all about:

Don't you think that pointing out everyones little mistakes that does not even need to be mention about is rather pointless? Well having to point out every mistake is a mistake of it's own.

D3 talking to D3: Having the tendency to point out everything wrong about everything is like being a perfectionist who never reaches perfection.

No, it's an attempt to help you out but feel free to look stupid.
Look stupid? Listen in real life nobody gives a care if you make a mistake in spelling. (Unless if it is important which typing on a forum is not even a necessity) People just go it is o.k it happens to everyone, they don't act like you and go, what a idiot he made a spelling error! I would rather look stupid then to act like a jerk who can't take a chill pill and stop picking on people just because they made a mistake. Mistakes happen to EVERYONE. Nobody cares that bad for a simple spelling error which can be fixed in seconds. But you seem to like to do it anyway. All I am saying is that pointing out mistakes are o.k but stupidity does NOT come from mistakes it comes from doing things on purpose. I did not do that on purpose so I think you should just stop acting like a jerk.

Mistakes are a part of life I agree but whoever makes the least succeeds.

I don't agree with that. Mistakes are absolutely the best learning experience. You have to make the mistakes yourself in order to gain the most experience. So, someone who makes very few mistakes has fewer opportunities to learn and more than likely won't be as successful.

3d said that whoever makes fewer mistakes will succeed and I disagree.

So, Turbo, I've given you real-life examples of people who have made mistakes and have been very successful. Please give me a real-life example of someone who has made no mistakes and is more successful. That's the point we are discussing. Please enlighten me.
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« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2009, 04:11:22 pm »

Wrong again Turbo. Didn't think I'd have to spell everything out for you, so it is not implied in the short run.

Quick tip: When arguing, it's best to assume that your audience has no idea what you're talking about.  Spell everything out.  That way, you might look like you know what you're talking about.  Gotta give you props, though-- that was a good attempt to save some face.

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I didn't insult you when I first responded and the only insult I slung at you was that you have a lot to learn, which you continue to prove every time you post on this site.

"This will go on forever, because you are 17 and have a lot to experience in life before you'll understand. You will continue to make absurd arguments. You didn't even understand the arguments I made."

"I'm not even going to bother reading that. I read the first line and realized its just pointless to have a rational discussion with you Turbo. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt again, but I guess I should have learned from my first mistake."

"You continue to show that you have a lot to learn in life. Good luck with that 'perfect life' from that 'absolute wisdom' that you have. The wisdom that is based entirely on your own intelligence and nobody's mistakes. I trust you will be very successful."

"I would say that it would be fun to have this converstaion in 20 or 30 years, but I highly doubt you would have the humility to address it again."

Lol.  For the record, my sarcasm detector is functioning perfectly.  I know you were hoping it was broken or something, but I feel inclined to inform you of the truth.


Quote
Some of your responses:

"Lol?", "That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard", "Have you never argued a hypothetical circumstance?", "At this point, I'm doubting that you know what a hypothetical statement is.
", "lolwut?", "And the thought that you learn more from your own mistakes than watching everyone else make mistakes is laughable."

This is just a sample, but you see, every time you respond you try to insult my intelligence rather than just arguing the point. This is one area that you need to work on  Afro That's some free advice for you.

Now the hypocrisy rears its head.  You're taking all of my comments out of context, just like you claimed that I did.  Cool.  That's another thing making your arguments doubtful.

Quote
And let's go back to what the original discussion was all about:

Don't you think that pointing out everyones little mistakes that does not even need to be mention about is rather pointless? Well having to point out every mistake is a mistake of it's own.

D3 talking to D3: Having the tendency to point out everything wrong about everything is like being a perfectionist who never reaches perfection.

No, it's an attempt to help you out but feel free to look stupid.
Look stupid? Listen in real life nobody gives a care if you make a mistake in spelling. (Unless if it is important which typing on a forum is not even a necessity) People just go it is o.k it happens to everyone, they don't act like you and go, what a idiot he made a spelling error! I would rather look stupid then to act like a jerk who can't take a chill pill and stop picking on people just because they made a mistake. Mistakes happen to EVERYONE. Nobody cares that bad for a simple spelling error which can be fixed in seconds. But you seem to like to do it anyway. All I am saying is that pointing out mistakes are o.k but stupidity does NOT come from mistakes it comes from doing things on purpose. I did not do that on purpose so I think you should just stop acting like a jerk.

Mistakes are a part of life I agree but whoever makes the least succeeds.

I don't agree with that. Mistakes are absolutely the best learning experience. You have to make the mistakes yourself in order to gain the most experience. So, someone who makes very few mistakes has fewer opportunities to learn and more than likely won't be as successful.

3d said that whoever makes fewer mistakes will succeed and I disagree.

Okay, great.  Now let's look at my argument, which is what spawned our argument, which is what we are debating:

"I don't agree with that. Mistakes are absolutely the best learning experience. You have to make the mistakes yourself in order to gain the most experience. So, someone who makes very few mistakes has fewer opportunities to learn and more than likely won't be as successful."  - Termin8tor

"But, assuming someone doesn't sit in a padded room all day and actually makes decisions, wouldn't you say that the person in question was wise if he never needed to learn from mistakes because he made the right choices?  Mistakes are great to learn from, but sometimes it just serves as a wake-up slap to the people who go through life sleeping; if you're already awake, what good would a wake-up slap do?" - Myself

It now turns in to a debate on whether making the wrong choice or making the right choice is better overall.  Arguments aren't absolute-- they change as the debate progresses.  I didn't think I'd have to spell that out for you.  Oh, wait, I did-- twice:

"Last I checked, this argument was not, "Can you learn from mistakes that you make or others make?"; it was "Do bad choices help you, the individual, benefit greater now and in the long run in comparison to making the right choice?""

"I think something else that most of you are forgetting is that this is not a real-world, position-contingent argument; the subject is not, "If you're in this position, making mistakes doesn't matter."  Rather, it is, "Does making a mistake benefit me greater now and in the long run when compared to not making a mistake now and learning from the fruits of my wisdom?""

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So, Turbo, I've given you real-life examples of people who have made mistakes and have been very successful.

Actually, you gave me real-life examples of people who got very lucky.

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Please give me a real-life example of someone who has made no mistakes and is more successful. That's the point we are discussing. Please enlighten me.

Again, you missed the point we're discussing.  Sorry about that.

Anyway, I love how you phrased this paragraph. You claimed that you gave me real life examples and acted like that proved your point, because the people were still successful.  You're forgetting something: the fact that, if they had made the right choices, they could have been more successful is what your argument lacks.  You keep insisting that if they hadn't done the one thing you're citing, they wouldn't have done anything.  Truth is, if they had made the right decisions, they would have ended up better, no matter how you look at it.

This is a bit off-topic, but I want to comment on it: You said you were done with arguing this argument because I was too immature.  So, you either had a drastic change of heart which would contradict your earlier posts (or should I say "earlier attempts to save face") or you're trying to prove just how big of a hypocrite you are.  Which is it?





EDIT:  Also, the fact that you admitted to not reading my other post is proof enough that you abandoned rational argument long ago.

"I'm not even going to bother reading that. I read the first line and realized its just pointless to have a rational discussion with you Turbo."

Ironically, the very thing that you were accusing me of being incapable of doing is the same thing that you have turned away from to insult me and use my age as some sort of excuse for you not wanting to argue any more.  It's rather insulting that you can't just admit that I'm right and instead turn to petty insults about things that are beyond my control.  Perhaps I should call you a senile old man since I don't like what you're saying.  I won't, though, because that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 04:21:50 pm by Turboweasle » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2009, 04:19:57 pm »

you said you were leaving the site, but you're back, which is it?

And what I gave you was facts about people who made mistakes and were very successful. You could debate all day about what they may have done, but there is no proof. All I did was ask for proof to back up your argument. That people making all the right decisions are more successful.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either put up or shut up.

BTW, in terms of insults, you did it first my friend. I posted that response after you attacked me.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 04:25:29 pm by Termin8or » Report Spam   Logged

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